trickg

Ed, below are the contents of the post that I removed: I'll post it both here (thus bumping the thread) and back up where it was originally.
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Derek, I don't want to jump on Ed's toes, but I think that this is a great topic and I wanted to jump in with an idea or comment or two.

Pound for pound, gymnasts are some of the strongest athletes out there today in terms of strength vs. weight. Just food for thought on that.

Another idea that I had in terms of relating strength and balance to trumpet playing and gymnastics is focus! Much of what a gymnast does to achieve the balance in handstands or whatever is due to focus and fine tuning. So many trumpet players, myself included, try to muscle it out through brute force, when a lighter touch, even in the stratosphere, is probably required.

A player can be exremely resonant down low without having the proper focus or fine tuning to achieve the same result up high. More food for thought.

I'd post more, but I'm out of time. More later!

ecarroll

Erik,

Your site might be a be a "hobby" but your playing obviously isn't, judging by where/with whom you're working. Great to see the Metropole Orkest, Rob Pronk, and others on your bio. By the way, Bob Mintzer and I went to high school together (Pete Erskine as well) many years ago.

Yes, Wim was at the Conservatorium in Rotterdam when I arrived. He, Andre Heuvelman, and I misbehaved on a few occasions.

Thorsten, along with Sebastian Strempel, Ralf Hesse, and one other (brain cramp), came to Lake Placid in 1997 to work with Bob Brookmeyer, Maria Schneider, and Jim McNeely. Bob was a friend in Rotterdam and now one of my closest friends/neighbors here in New Hampshire. Thorsten's a serious lead player, and mostly unknown over here.

Beste,
EC

Veldkamp

Wim and Ruud Breuls are in the Bob Brookmeyer band now. Thorsten is still playing lead. I think he is the leadplayer of the NDR big band now in Hamburg, Germany.

I studied with Jan Oosthof and play together with him occasionaly. Mostly the leadplayers are replacing each other, that's why I'm not seeing Wim and Jan that often. Jan and Wim are splitting the leadpart now with the Metropole Orchestra.

Another great leadplayer who is one of the best is Andy Haderer of the WDR big band Cologne. He plays lead and solos and piccolo.

Now you're more or less up to date....

Oh yeah, they all have a lot of balance and even more strength (to stay with the topic).

chrisvenditti

I just wanted to add a quick comment here. I think this discussion is really great. For the last two years I have studied with Jim Thompson at Eastman. For those not farmiliar with his methodolgy, he essentially discusses this subject a good bit in studio. He says that the ballence of the lip and air will create the most resonant and 'ballenced' tone. If you grip too much with the lip you will pinch of fthe sound, if you blow too much air you will blow open your apeture. A small, strong, flexible apeture combine with proper airflow makes a resonant sound.

This past year in studio class he demonstrated this concept. We had a trumpet section playing the last movment to Shost. 5. Whomever was playing first wasn't getting it, so Thompson stepped in to demonstrate. He said if you try to really play loud,and force the sound by gripping with the lips it will sound like just a loud straining trumpet. And, it was exactly that....just loud....a sound that will project like 10 feet. Then he showed us how to play the piece again ballencing the air with the lip to create a resonant sound. His sound was not nearly as 'loud' as the first time, but this time it was devestationg. The ring and the overtones were so screaming in that small room that I literally covered my ears because it hurt. He said that the second sound will cut through an orchestra, and the first will get the hand from a conductor.

Just my .02 cents about what I have been taught.

Chris

Derek Reaban

Chris,

Great post! While I’ve never been to Eastman, I read everything that I can about what James Thompson has to say about sound production. Surprisingly, I have been to that exact masterclass that you mentioned, but I attended via a videoclip at the Yamaha website when he presented at the Yamaha Day of Trumpets (scroll down and click on “video” in the bottom left of the screen).


Here is a brief synopsis that I put together his presentation on resonance and the Shostakovich example:

chrisvenditti

Derek,

I also saw the clips on the Yamaha website. He is talking about the same concepts there as he did in studio class this past year.

Here is some more food for thought. When a poor singer sings there is not much ring in their voice and they struggle to singer over a piano. Great singers can demolish an orchestra. Dave Krauss talks about this in his clips on the Yamaha website. Thompson has said on many occasions that if you stand in a room with a great singer it can be really painful because there are so many overtones screaming at you.

Great discussion. For those lead players out there...what do you guys think about when playing over the band in a shout chorus?

Chris

Veldkamp

I don't know if there's much difference between resonance and sizzle. But maybe resonance means a lot of overtones and sizzle means a lot of high overtones. A leadplayer looks for sizzle and projection. The sound is centered with a lot of energy. I think when a classical player is looking for projection, he means that his sound is well heard (not loud) but is broader, not so centered as compared to a leadplayer.

I think a good leadplayer and a good classical player are thinking more or less the same thing when playing a tutti. I personally try to swing as hard possible. When you have a good band, I'm just enjoying the music and play my part as musically possible. When the band is not so good, I'm trying to keep the band together so my chops will suffer a lot more.

With keeping the band together, I mean articulating stronger and clearer. Sometimes it means that I play louder. Dictating the time and frasing stronger.

I could be wrong off course (I'm not a classical player)...

Derek Reaban

Chris,

I attended David’s clinic at the ITG Conference in Denver. I’m not sure if you’ve seen the summary that I did of his class (the part related to sound production), but it went into even more detail that what was shown on the video clip at the Yamaha site. Go to this link

These are the ideas that should shine extremely brightly (using my earlier metaphor) and be seconds or at most minutes old, but unfortunately, they are often clouded by the discussions of strength in these forums, and tend to be very distant, if visible at all.

If you ever hear that Jim Thompson is planning a trip to Arizona, please post here! I would love to hear him live in a master class or even schedule time for a lesson.

W Scott

Derek, you mentioned in one post that folks need to stop struggling and fighting the trumpet. The trumpet needs to be allowed to ring/sing. One thing I'm finding is that each horn rings differently. How a horn rings depends on construction, materials, design..etc.

What I've found is that with the alternate fingerings for trumpet, some horns need an alternate fingering to make them really ring. I keep experimenting with this, but I find it interesting how changing from---say--open for 'G' in the staff to using 1/3 for the same note changes how the horn rings.

Have you noticed this too?

Derek Reaban

W Scott,

Sure! We’ve all experienced this. Essentially the best (most resonant sound) does not want to align with intonation of the ensemble. You have to choose between a vibrant ringing sound that is not at the same pitch as the rest of the players in your group versus a sound that matches pitch but does not have that same great ring. Of course, this is where slides and alternate fingerings come into play. By choosing a valve combination that allows you to put the slide in the position where your best sound and just intonation align, you have found the best combination on your horn for that note.

If you’re interested, have a look at the Monette website and read about the subjective, objective, and true (or optimum) pitch center.

Hope this helps!