Newguy

[quote=screamingmorris;371652]Bernie,


Now that you have been playing trumpet for 2 months and you have been playing cornet for 1 week, I would be interested in your comparison of how it feels playing the 2 instruments, trumpet versus cornet.

Your Barrington trumpet and your Holton Super Collegiate cornet probably have almost identical bore sizes, approximately .460.

Funny you should mention that, the Barrington is SUPPOSED to be .459, but I read somewhere that you measure the bore by pulling the second valve slide and measuring the inside of the second valve slide and on the Holton, I do get .460 but on the Barrington I only get .449. Either I am measuring at the wrong spot, although the Holton is right on, or the Barrington is very small. What is yours' like Dave?? and am I measuring at the right place?

How different do they feel in air resistance / openness?

I noticed right away that the cornet seemed easier to blow, even before any measuring.


How different are they in tone?

The cornet seems to be actually deeper in pitch or tone, not as brassy sounding as the trumpet. Before getting your email today, I was messing with the two of them and would play an exercise on one and put it down and then pick up the other and play the same thing, just to compare. BTW, I got the Parduba 6.5 for the cornet the day after I got the horn from you so I was using the same style MP but made for the horn, on each.


How different are they in range ability / high notes?

At this point, I think the cornet holds about a one note higher edge, these are good notes, not squeakers that are just there -- btw -- after I was done practicing today and trying for those high C's again -- which I was to tired to make -- I noticed a popped vein in my eyeball!! I think, I'll stay a little lower for awhile -- it was in my good eye too (I'm blind in the other one)!!


How different are they in comfort of holding them?
Any other aspects of playing them differ?

As you noted to me before, it is easier for the old arthritic bones and tired muscles to hold the cornet since it is in closer to body.


So many of us have so many years of one instrument under our belt before we try the other instrument that we tend to approach the second instrument already set in our ways by the first instrument.
But since you are starting the 2 instruments at approximately the same time, I think you would have a unique perspective in comparing trumpet with cornet.

I think I can make the comparison that, so me at least, the cornet handling reminds me of a small, zippy, fast handling sports car, while the trumpet is more in the large, luxury Mercedes class, but the sound is reversed -- the cornet is mellowed as you would associate with a Mercedes, and the trumpet is brassy as you would expect with a small sports car. Now if that makes any sense to anyone -- you must be as twisted as I am!

BTW, you might want to wait until you get your official cornet mouthpiece before answering, because using your trumpet mouthpiece on your cornet (yeah, I've done it, too) can give slightly false impressions (if I put a Bach 7E trumpet mouthpiece on my cornet it has a different tone than if I put a Bach 7E cornet mouthpiece on my cornet, because they have a different backbore although everything else about the 2 mouthpieces is the same).


See above -- already have.

All in all -- all though it is very early, I do believe I prefer the cornet over the trumpet, it just seems easier to me, maybe it is also just better.

screamingmorris

It would be great if you could visit a local music store and test drive different cornets just to see how different they can sound and feel.

For example, you might look for a student-level Holton C603 which has a larger .465 bore and shepherd's crook.
Its sound is bigger and mellower.

Then go the other direction and look for one of the vintage cornets that has a very small bore, much smaller than your present .460 bore, to see how much easier the high notes are, how much better your stamina is, how much more brilliant they are.

And also look for a really short cornet, such as the 13 inch one I use, to see that the short cornets have yet another sound quality.

No one type of cornet is really better than another type.
One cornet is only better than another if you like it better, if it fills your needs better.
Each type of cornet has its own "personality" in terms of its sound and feel.

Trouble is, if you go out test driving the different types of cornets just to see how different they sound and feel, you will end up having to explain to the wife why there are 4 cornets sitting on the dining table:
"Honey, they followed me home."

BTW, after you get the cornet and trumpet broken in, you could also experiment with moderately-priced mouthpieces.
I keep a Bach 7, Bach 7E, and Weril W46, all of which feel identical on the lips but have different cup depths, so that I can switch from deep mouthpiece for mellow ballads to shallower mouthpiece for practicing high notes.
Each cup depth gives your instrument a different personality, different ability.

- Morris

Newguy

Two Problems.

1) We have a couple of music stores around, but if they have ANY instruments in them, they are guitars, and electric ones at that.

2) The four gifts of equal or greater value for the wife for the four cornets that followed me home would surely break me!!

screamingmorris

Bernie, at the rate you were progressing after just 2 months of playing trumpet, I assume you are almost playing Double C's now?

Let us know how you are progressing.

Everybody else here has equipment and skills that make me jealous, so you might as well do it, too.
I assure you that I had to play *years* before I played my first High C, whereas you did it in only 2 months

- Morris

Newguy

Morris --- you are getting to be a mind reader, or else are "in tune" with me!!

I do a lot of "lurking" here on TrumpetMaster, reading everything that catches my eye. I almost had withdrawal the other day when the site was down.

Anyway, I was reading in another thread about "clocking" the mouthpeice and before practice today, and I decided to try it. I alternate and one day use the Barrington trumpet and the next the Holton cornet -- yesterday happened to be the Barrington's day so I started with it.

I was simply playing open and going up and seeing how the tone, slotting, and ease of playing were in different positions and when I got to the 6 o'clock position, I got to and held for about a second -- are you ready for this -- high E above the staff!!

I noticed that high C's seemed to be coming easier, also. Needless to say, I immediately got out the Holton and tried the same experiment. Now, I am using Parduba 6.5 mp's in both horns. I found the Holton likes about a 4-5 o'clock position, but I could not go as high with it, only to a C and a B comfortably. Maybe I was getting tired.

I have noticed that when I try seeing how high I can get at the beginning of my practice, I only last about 1/2 hour and the the lips are shot. Even if I stop for a couple hours and try to come back for more, it isn't good. If I don't push for the high notes, I can go for about 45minutes, leave it for awhile and the go for another session, no trouble. I think that I will limit my trys for the high stuff to once a week and see how I do then and concentrate on everything else the rest of the week -- God knows I need everything else more than I need range at this point!!!

I am having a lot of fun, but I do wish I had gotten a trumpet those many years ago when I was ten instead of the clarinet, damn those front teeth!!! I think I could have been a fair player, now if I play 5 lines of music in a row, I don't have any air left thanks to this COPD!! By the fifth line, half notes start to pick up vibrato which isn't intentional -- it's just the way the air flow is being forced.

"I COULDA BEEN A CONTENDER!!"

Anyway, that's where I am progress wise -- today is Holton day!!

screamingmorris

I am curious to know what embouchure you were born with.

Instead of typing it all over again, I'll copy / paste from my recent post to hanminyang in Toronto:

Players are born to be one of many embouchure types (lip formation for playing).
Go to
An Introduction to Donald S. Reinhardt's Pivot System
and scroll down to the middle of that long Web page to the heading
Reinhardt's Embouchure Types

Generally, players fall into 2 categories.
They are born down-stream or up-stream.

A down-stream player will play better if he uses more upper lip than lower lip so that he is playing low on the mouthpiece, and he sounds better if the trumpet is pointed slightly downward.
He is called "down-stream" because his lower lip curls under the upper lip, so that the air-stream is projected downward as he plays.

An up-stream player will play better if he uses more lower lip than upper lip so that he is playing high on the mouthpiece, and he sounds better if the trumpet is pointed slightly upward.
He is called "up-stream" because his upper lip curls under the lower lip, so that the air-stream is projected upward as he plays.

A person is born one way or the other, so look at the photos in that section of that Web page, experiment to find what works best for you, compare what you see in your mirror to those photos.

I am Type 4 upstream.
I spent my 5 years in school band trying to imitate the other players who were almost all down-stream players.
But after I dropped out of band my friend told me to try up-stream (I had never even heard the term before), I did, and I saw immediate and dramatic improvement.

My range tends to be highest after just a 2-minute warmup, as long as I play gently, softly.
As you said, if I play until my lips finally give out, then I rest a few hours, my range and tone return to some degree but not completely.
The range and tone only return completely the next day.

Question which would determine what cornet is best for you:
For playing cornet, is beautiful tone more important to you, or is range more important to you?

There are cornets which have significantly larger bores than your Holton Super Collegiate, and I think you could play them OK as long as you play gently (the same way I do). The tone is beautiful, rich, but the range will be a few steps lower than you are now getting. Which wouldn't matter if you use the trumpet for playing high notes.

On the other hand, there are cornets which have significantly smaller bores than your Holton, and they would probably give you a better range than on your Holton, although the tone would not be as full and rich.

When I first got my Conn 5A, which has the same .484 bore as the Conn Director student cornets, it felt like it was requiring every bit of air I could give it.
But I learned to play more softly into it, and my embouchure adapted after a month or two, and it no longer feels nearly as large a bore as it did before, so that it probably requires no more air than your Holton.
Other Conn cornet models having that same bore size will vary in how big they feel.
The Director will probably require less air than my Conn 5A, while the Constellation 37A/38A will probably require more air than my Conn 5A.

So I am just wondering what cornet bore size you are interested in trying based on your priorities in playing and based on your breathing ability.

- Morris

Newguy

Hi Morris,

I think I would have to be classified as a downstream player if I understand all that stuff correctly. I seem to be just about centered but favor a little more upper lip in the mp than lower. I also find that I tend to slightly tip the horn down for low notes and up for higher notes. Don't know how this works for others, but it seems to work for me.

As for given a choice of range or tone, I'll take tone. No offense to anyone who does/can/likes it, but to me, ANY brass instrument played WAY up there is more screeching than music. It's good for show and I respect what it represents, but it doesn't sound good to me, just my opinion. Now, remember, I'm talking WAY up there, high C ain't there!! Before I get jumped on, I don't mean an occassional note in a classical piece or something, I guess what I am referring to, and again just my opinion and taste, is some jazz where it is so high and so long that I want to look for ear plugs cause it hurts!!! And even then, I do respect what that represents and know that it is something that I will never ever be able to do, but I don't care for it. For me, as I said, tone is more important than a super large range.

OK, flame suit on! Be gentle -- it's only good for 500 degrees F.

screamingmorris

A downstream player will tend to point the trumpet *more* downward as he ascends the scale, so the degree of tilt becomes more downwward as he ascends.
An upstream player will tend to point the trumpet *more* upward as he ascends the scale, so the degree of tilt becomes more upward as he ascends.
Maynard Ferguson was downstream, Doc Severinsen was upstream.
Hold the mouthpiece to your lips and buzz while looking closely in a mirror.
Is the upper lip curling slightly under the lower lip (upstream), or is the lower lip slightly curling under the upper lip (downstream)?

Try playing (holding a note) above the staff with the trumpet tilted slightly below level, then again with the trumpet tilted slightly above level.
Which is easier and gives better tone?

- Morris

Newguy

Ok, based on your "lip curling" then that would make me "Downstream" which I said before BUT I DO ALSO tilt up (easier and better tone) as I go up and vice versa. I seem to be some sort of combination -- for right or wrong -- it works for me!!

screamingmorris

Many players tilt heads and instruments in an unusal way when playing notes below the staff.

How the instrument is tilted when ascending from 3rd space C up an octave to High C is a better indicator.

If the trumpet is tilted downward more for the High C than for the 3rd space C, that is typical of downstream players.
As the player goes higher up the scale, the trumpet tilts lower.

If the trumpet is tilted upward more for the High C than for 3rd space C, that is typical of upstream players.
As the player goes higher up the scale, the trumpet tilts higher.

Of course, that is true when the player is using minimum mouthpiece pressure as is recommended.
If the player mashes the upper lip too much or the lower lip too much in using too much mouthpiece pressure, that can abnormally affect the tilt of the trumpet.

Anyway, it sounds like you are doing very well.
Your speed in obtaining an upper register made me think you might be upstream, because upstream players find the upper register a little bit easier than for downstream players.
But whatever embouchure type you are, you are doing extremely well.
There might be an opening for you in the Lawrence Welk Orchestra in Branson, Missouri, if you are willing to re-locate

Is Lin Biviano still leading that orchestra as he was a few years ago, and is he still dating that Lawrence Welk alumnus?

- Morris