trickg

Alex,

I'm going to address some of the things you posted in reference to my posts point by point.

So don’t even go there Pat or anyone, trying to imply that there are different quality standards makes you sound silly to anyone who knows better. There is only ONE quality standard. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or really misinformed.
Do you mean to tell me that Kanstul's student line horns are assembled and finished with the same care that goes into his Signature lines, or that the materials are all the same? Not likely. A friend of mine, a highly skilled brass tech has said to me that one of the biggest differences between a student model horn and a pro level horn is how they are put together. Simply put, from what I can see, there is more time and attention put into the Wild Thing than the ZueS G, and that more than anything else accounts for the price difference. I think that Flip is probably charging a fair price for his horn, and I also think that you are charging a fair price for your horn, but in the end it simply comes down to number of hours that are put in to create the finished product.

You should never compare a brushed brass instrument against a polished silver instrument. They are finished very differently. All ZeuS instruments are finished impeccably and certainly to the standards of a Bach. There is only one way to make an instrument. Pat, Your explanation is very unclear. You are trying very hard to influence those who have not seen a ZeuS personally. ZeuS owners surely can’t take you seriously and wonder about your motivations. I repeat, there is one standard of quality at the factory, and its second to none. Also to correct you on something, a brushed brass instrument does not have to be buffed. It’s scratched brushed. Should it have been scratched brushed more? Is this what you are saying? Are you saying that the braces looked crooked on it or were falling off? Let’s not get silly and invent things Patrick.
You are coming dangerously close to calling me a liar, Alex. I'm not trying to influence anyone, I'm simply reporting what I saw. I apologize if that doesn't cast the best light on your instrument, but I'm certainly not going to lie on your behalf. I didn't fall off the apple truck yesterday. I spent 10 years of my life making a living playing my trumpet and I've been playing for almost 23 years. I know what I'm looking at when I look at a trumpet whether it has a satin lacquer finish or a bright silver finish. Besides, I don't know what you are getting upset about. I seem to recall that I gave a good review of the ZueS G that I played on Monday. With the .470 slide, it played VERY well, perhaps better than my Bach. However, with the original slide, it wasn't as good as my Bach. And the fit and finish didn't match the Wild Thing. I'm not saying that there were major flaws because there weren't, but there were minor things and there weren't ANY on the Wild Thing. Even my Bach brand new didn't match the fit and finish of the Wild Thing. By the way, on John Miconi's ZeuS, there was a brace that was on slightly crooked. Of the two upright braces, (one on the tuning slide and one just behind) they are supposed to be parallel. They weren't. The rear brace was just slightly askew, as was one of the braces just underneath the third valve slide holding the slide stop assembly. I'm not inventing things. All I have done is report back what I have seen. So, that being said, I HAVE seen things that weren't fitted quite right on a ZeuS. As for the scratched finish and whether or not the parts should be buffed, if there are blemishes on the parts, YES THEY SHOULD be buffed out, even before the scratch finish is applied.

You are imagining things again Pat. The seller of the WT does not assemble any horn. You also make it sound like the manufacturer does really shoddy work until the trumpet “guru” seller makes the instrument actually playable. As a repair technician, I would sure like to know in detail exactly what this expensive tweaking entails before I would spend my money on the instrument.
We've now (maybe) established that Flip does not assemble the horns. However, I never once said that the manufacturer does shoddy work. However, I do believe that they do quick work and because of that, there are going to be some minor imperfections to the assembly of the horn. For starters, extra solder in the joints. That is something that the "guru" might check for and remove if there is excess. Valve alignment. This is something that can be expertly adjusted. Brace placement. It is no secret that a brace in the wrong spot can adversely affect resonance in the horn. Again, it is my understanding that Flip adjusts the bracing on each horn to insure maximum resonance and response.

Before you evaluate playability of an instrument and attempt to make it public, your own playing ability should be evaluated first to make everything legitimate. If you recall, I sold a ZeuS G early on to one of your good friends. He did mention to me that your playing is not at a high level. Please make this clear before you evaluate any instrument. Interestingly, some of the best ZeuS players wanted nothing to do with the .470 slide, stating that they did not want to change the character of the instrument as it was with the original slide. The instrument is impressive with the standard slide and that is why it’s a very successful product for myself and for my dealers. Furthermore Pat, your Bach is not even the standard model and not equivalent to the ZeuS in bore size.
My playing not at a high level? Define "high level". It's plenty high enough that I know the difference in how a horn plays. Remember, I did make my living as a trumpet-playing musician for over 10 years, so we'll leave my playing level at that. I have never had a problem getting or keeping a gig. If my playing was not at a high enough level, I wouldn't be able to keep a gig. While it's true that I'm no Arturo Sandoval or Wynton Marsalis, I hold my own in any of the ensembles that I have played in and currently play in here in the Washington DC area.

I have never claimed to be an excellent trumpet player, a cut above and on a national level, although I do consider myself to be a good trumpet player. I used to be better than I am now because it was all I did for quite some time. Now, I play a lot on the side. I'm currently involved in 4 bands, 3 of them as a trumpet player and all of them consider me to be a solid, contributing member of the ensemble.

As for that "good friend" that you say made the comment about my playing, there are two friends of mine that you have sold a ZueS to, not just one. With one of those guys, he and I share different sides of the same coin. He's more of a lead player, I'm a little more rooted in legit because simply put, my lead playing register is not as strong as his. However, I'll put my sound up there against anyone's. The other guy has only been playing for 3 years, but he has me listed as an inspiration on his web page where he lists people that inspire him. Not that this says anything about my playing, but suffice it to say that I can say with conviction that I don't suck and I am more than qualified enough to be able to play a horn and rate it's playability.

By the way, NEITHER of those guys still have their ZeuS Gs. They BOTH sold them less than a year after purchasing them. Call it what you want. I think that the horn is solid, but I don't think that it's all you claim it to be.

When you say "some of the best ZueS players" prefer the original slide, how many exactly are you talking about? Two, three? I certainly don't think that they are in the trumpet-playing majority. Simply put, the ZueS played better FOR ME with the .470 slide. It wasn't quite as resistant above high C. By the way, the reason that Paul even HAS the other slides is because he thought that the horn was stuffy with the original slide. So did I. I don't think that I'm imagining things here.

As for my Bach not being the "standard" model, it is in fact the standard Bach configuration for a large bore horn. It is the standard LB Bach Strad in .462 with a #25 bell. That IS standard for a LB Bach. I didn't expect the tuning slide to fit MY horn although I suspect that it would have fit a ML Bach Strad.

Patrick, you have spent enough time on these forums to know that the ZeuS G is based on a Bach, so my goal was achieved with that design. Of course you should be able to figure out that when one creates a Bach style instrument, it will not be an original design, that is not the intention. Who could I have designed the ZeuS G when it’s based on my own vintage Bach? Think before you write Patrick.
However, I am impressed enough to see that you did notice the very close resemblance between the ZeuS G and the Bach. The goal was to make it the same but only better. This we have achieved successfully.
I always think before I write. I have played and held vintage Bachs and to say that your ZueS G design is "based on" that of your Mount Vernon Bach is kind of a stretch, and even you said to me once that it was designed more to sound like the Vintage Bach more so than it was designed after the measurements of the vintage Bach. The Mount Vernon Bach has a tighter wrap than the newer Bachs. If your ZeuS had the same wrap, then the tuning slide wouldn't have fit in my horn at all because the slide wouldn't have lined up with the openings. I stand by my statement that your ZeuS G was designed in part on the specs of the newer model Bach Strads, even if the sound is intended to be that of the vintage models.

Here you go again Pat. Who are you trying to have believe this? Certainly not ZeuS owners.
Again, I'm not TRYING to get anyone to believe anything. I'm merely reporting things as I saw them. What I say of course is my opinion, but I think if you ask around you will find that my opinion is generally fairly well respected.

You are not making sense again Pat. You did notice that for $600 less a player would get a better instrument than the Bach. However you are comparing different specification when comparing it to the WT or the Eclipse. The Eclipse is a work of art and is unaffordable to most players, there is a market for that sort of instrument, although a small one and it is also wrong to suggest that it will work for everyone. The WT is a large bore trumpet with a very different shaped bell. Very different instruments. If you need an instrument with the specifications of the WT or the Eclipse then you should buy an instrument with that design. The ZeuS G was not intended to have the specs of the WT or the look and specs of the Eclipse. It was intended to be a better Bach for $600 less.
I said that it was a "solid" horn. I never said it was better than a standard Bach. That is an opinion best left up to whoever decides to play either one of them. However, compared side by side with the Wild Thing, it just doesn't stand up. You say that they are very different instruments, but they are both Bb trumpets. In any case I seem to recall once that you claimed your ZeuS G would out play and out perform ANY of the so-called "Superhorns" and the Wild Thing was on that list. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, it doesn't. The Wild Thing is a superior instrument to the ZeuS G in virtually every aspect. But for $2550, the price for the silver-plated model, it had better out perform any horn that costs $1500 less.

Truth be told, if I were looking for a Bach type horn for my next horn purchase, I would seriously consider the ZueS G. But I'm not. I'm looking for something different. I'm not even sure that the Wild Thing fits that bill. I have YET to say that I think that the ZeuS G is a bad horn or not worth the money, because I simply don't think that is the case. It is a formidable instrument and it is priced very competitively. I was not trying to get anyone to believe anything about the ZueS. I was only reporting it as I saw it.

Alex, I'm surprised that you attacked me the way that you did. I thought my review of Paul's ZeuS was actually a favorable review. Then you try to dismiss me by making some claim that John Miconi said that my level of playing is not that high and that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'll ask him about that when I see him on Saturday.

__________________
Patrick Gleason
email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com

"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
"At my signal, unleash hell."
- Maximus Decimus Meridius