Here is your Jazz Degree kid. Good Luck! - Page 3

JunkyT · 03-02-2007, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Jazz is a difficult music for people to understand unless they have some experience with it. Same with classical, but in some ways jazz is even more difficult. I think we have to keep pushing for arts education in our schools if we want to maintain the affordability of arts.

With all due respect, Dave, I think this kind of attitude is part of the problem. Jazz is not inherently difficult music. What's difficult about a Basie shout chorus or Sinatra or 50's Miles, as you say? I think that's far more palatable to the masses than the latest 50 Cent record. And yet 50 Cent sells millions of albums and many jazz musicians have to have day jobs at Starbucks to survive.

And it isn't education that sells 50 Cent records...it's marketing. If as much money was put behind Dave Holland, maybe he'd be on MTV too...

If there's education to be done, it's to tell the masses that jazz is NOT inherently difficult or cerebral. It's about emotion and sharing and communication and magic. Everyone can relate to those ideas, even if they couldn't begin to tell you how to build a -7b5 chord.

Case in point: Ingrid, our gracious hostess on this site, is in Seattle right now. Yesterday she played a concert with some of the faculty from Cornish College, and today she and her husband Jon Wikan led an improv workshop. Of course, she and the band were playing at the highest levels, but through it all, they talked more about listening and communicating and creating magic than they did about how to play through the changes or how to practice articulation, etc.

Let's all pledge right now to do our part, and as Manny said, take some responsibility for the fate of our music. I'm sure that means many things to many people, but every small step in the right direction is, well, a step in the right direction!

I've got a gig tonight, and I'm going to create some damn magic! What are you gonna do?

Brekelefuw · 03-02-2007, 07:50 PM

A lot of jazz is very palatable, but I think that there came a time where musical mathematics, soundscapes instead of form and harmony became a regular thing. I think this separated the audience from the music. There is definitely musicians jazz and audience jazz. One reason Harry Connick Jr is so popular is because he is able to satisfy both musicians and the audience. He swings like crazy, writes great tunes and has great soloists, but his music is still within the realm of something that an average listener can understand. They hear harmony and resolutions, and even though they couldn't tell you that the band is playing a II-V in Ab major with a tritone sub on the Eb7 chord, they still get the emotional response from the tension and release that the harmony creates.
There are also people who like to play as many notes as possible, or squeeks and squawks and write songs that are based more on harmonic and melodic exercises than on musicality. These songs don't sound musical to the average audience, and for some reason, make up a large portion of the general idea of what jazz is.
The focus of some musicians is in the wrong place. Instead of creating musicality and emotional response in the band and the audience, they go for big displays of technical ability and patterns. It frightened me when I was the average music listener, and I'm sure it frightens others away from such a diverse form of music.

03-02-2007, 10:11 PM

JunkyT · 03-03-2007, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Jason, you make some great points, but I just can't agree in total. I think most jazz is much more complex than rap music, which is primarily words and rhythm over an ostinato. Most people don't know how to appreciate improvisation, or know what they are listening to. I think there is music like the Basie shout or even 50's Miles that is simple enough for most people to enjoy. The masses want a recognizable melody, or words. I do agree that it is our job to educate them that it is not as difficult as they may think. I used to teach a jazz history class to non-music majors. By far, the most important, and most enjoyed, session of the semester was when I brought in a jazz combo, and we showed them what we were doing...what the roles of the musicians were in that setting. After laying that groundwork, the history part came much easier. But time and again students told me that it was that session that unlocked jazz for them.

I'm not suggesting that they need to comprehend polytonality to enjoy later styles, or that they need to identify a ii-V-I. But without the basic knowledge of what the musicians are trying to do, and an understanding of the roles of the rhythm section, much of our art is lost to many of the public.

You make some good points too, Dave. I agree that a very basic understanding of what we're trying to do will help with a non-jazzer's development. I do some teaching too, and have had similar experiences to yours in the classroom. In fact, the History of Jazz class I took in college (from Bobby Bradford, no less) "unlocked" some mysteries for me too.

But I always try to debunk the myth that Jazz is scary or somehow too difficult for the masses. Sure, there's music that only musicians will love, and that's great. But there's a world of Jazz out there, both old and new, that is wonderful music and not hard to comprehend.

Miles, Chet, Guido Basso, Art Farmer, even Tom Harrell play beautiful, harmonically rich lines that are easy to wrap your heart around.

Incidentally, I just got back from a gig with my new Quartet, featuring the finest musicians I've ever shard a stage with. We played originals and tunes by Miles, Benny Golson, Sam Rivers, Charlie Parker and Branford Marsalis. The gig was at a new Jazz club here in seattle (www.ballardjamhouse.com) and the audience was a mix of Jazz fans and people just out for a classy Friday night. My band was killin', and the whole room was in the palm of our hands. It was one of the greatest nights of my perfoming life! And one of my strengths, if I do say so myself, is my ability to build rapport with an audience. I don't just play. I try to entertain everytime I'm on stage. I talk about the music, I rave about my bandmates, I plug upcoming shows, my own and others, and I try to engage the people on more than just a musical level. I've been to too many Jazz shows where the band all but ignores the audience, and while the music may be amazing, there's no show. The don't call it Show Business for nothing...

If you entertain them, they will come.

JunkyT · 03-03-2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

I think most jazz is much more complex than rap music, which is primarily words and rhythm over an ostinato. Most people don't know how to appreciate improvisation, or know what they are listening to.

re: Rap Music...

As hip as I try to be, often times I can't appreciate Rap music, or know what I'm listening to. Like Jazz, Rap has its own language, grammer, syntax, slang, quotes, self-referencing. I believe there are strong parallels between the two genres, and between the way the fans look at it as opposed to the masses.

I also believe that as soon as Rap (like Jazz) stopped being dancable, it started it's long, slow decline. People want to dance, go wild, forget about their troubles when they go out on the town. Rap music used to do that, as did Jazz. And both genres suffer for getting to far away from the dance floor.

In my humble opinion... ;)

st. paulitan · 03-03-2007, 11:22 AM

What about the role of media consolidation in the US? Why shouldn't local musicians performing in all styles, student and professional, have access to local programming on radio? Granted, there is some local cable access, campus radio, etc., but if local programming decisions are made at the national level by companies such as Clear Channel, then music at the grass roots may suffer.

Bill Simenson

SSAce · 03-03-2007, 06:35 PM

Wow...there are some really interesting ideas flying around this forum! This is my first post, I hope I don't stir up too much controversy, but there are a few things I would like to toss out here...

1. beartrumpet74 said..."As far as I'm concerned the major issue with jazz and schools isn't that fact that we are offering degrees for something that has a VERY hard career path, it's that we so often allow students to continue their study well past the point when it is obvious that they do not posses the skill, artistic chi I guess I call it, or the motivation to really make it ( by that I mean pay the bills and be happy) in the real world of music. I wish there were a good way to gently show these people that there may be better choices for them out in the world than that of a jazz musician or musician in general..."

Does this sound like the thought process of a teacher to you? Yes, it is a hard road. If the student is made aware of this and still wishes to continue, then it is our job as teachers to take them as far as we can. I know I am not the next Ingrid Jensen, Charlie Davis or Louis Armstrong. I realized a long time ago that I would never be one of these players. However, I went to college and studied trumpet. I even earned a degree in it. After that I moved to the big city and met some wonderful people who took me under their wing and now I play trumpet semi-professionally. Along the way I met a few people who thought that those that "couldn't play" should just hang it up. I also met many more who were willing to teach those that "couldn't play" how to play. After all, if everyone could just "do it" then we would have no need for teachers.

2. Dave said..."Jazz is a difficult music for people to understand unless they have some experience with it. Same with classical, but in some ways jazz is even more difficult. I think we have to keep pushing for arts education in our schools if we want to maintain the affordability of arts."

I agree with this statement. However, it is only difficult to understand because the musicians have chosen to make it that way. As we have gained more knowledge and technique we have not used the best judgement on how to employ it. For proof of this check out a Kid Thomas album. He is not a technicly "gifted" player but he plays the melodies in such a way that make you want to smile. It feels good to listen to him play. I hope that someday I can be in the same league as his big toe.
I guess what I am trying to say here is, people work hard all day, they may not want to think harder for recreation. That is why many people like pop music. It has a good beat, you can dance to it and some of it can be disected for scholarly value. The jazz musicians who have had the most comercial success (Armstrong, Parker, Coltrane, Miles, Ellington to name a few) were able to find their own voice and perform in such a way that it didn't exclude the general population.

Whew...well I hope I didn't ruin anyones day. I also don't want you all to think that I am some kind of dreary cloud. I really love all music, serious and otherwise. I regularly go and support live jazz and classical music and I think that my town (Minneapolis) does a great job of doing the same.

Take Care Everyone

Andy

trpt2345 · 03-04-2007, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JunkyT

Incidentally, I just got back from a gig with my new Quartet, featuring the finest musicians I've ever shard a stage with. We played originals and tunes by Miles, Benny Golson, Sam Rivers, Charlie Parker and Branford Marsalis. The gig was at a new Jazz club here in seattle
If you entertain them, they will come.

What tune or tunes did you do by Sam Rivers? Bet it was Beatrice. Or maybe Fuschia Swing Song, which is a head on Night and Day. He was one of my teachers, so I'm always interested when his name shows up anywhere. He told me the only tune he ever wrote that ever gets any royalties is Beatrice. Named after his wife who used to fry up fish sandwiches between sets at the Studio Rivbea. He's in his eighties now, but still playing last i heard.

Michael McLaughlin

np: Elis Regina with Hermeto Pascoal Live at Montruex 1979

John Conley · 03-04-2007, 08:24 AM

I am, and will remain of the opinion that government funding for educational institutions is well meaning but can become nothing more than bloated government using civil servents to try and understand someone's someone's acedemic achievements over heat, soul, and desire.

A simple study of artists, from Bach's time to the impressionists would serve as a reminder that much great art came from suffering and pain, having to believe so badly in something that one sacrificed everything in the pursuit of one's craft.

Now some kid who's parents made him/her play like a circus animal, forced him/her to sacrifice hockey for scales, ballet for piano, recitals over trips to Disney, can make Mom and Dad proud and get a music scholarship, and maybe a strad to play.

On the otherI hand I saw an inner city Detriot marching band with bent horns, drums with one head, and broken valves parade in Romeo Mich last year, and after the parade they, unlike the local (sorry all white kids) high school band didn't lay on the pavement in exhastion, but stood proud and played in a parking lot in 80 degree heat after a 1.5 mile march, and did that for an hour out of obvious love of music. Bet hardly one of them gets any scholarship, but bet you meet some of them playing horn in a jazz band.

As I said about a beautiful, talented, silky voiced jazz singer to my friend who plays the keyboards, prissy missy is missing a herion addiction or having her boyfriend die in a car crash, she doesn't feel a thing singing that.

Or maybe they need acting lessons.

Try playing "Miss Otis regrets...." and just play the notes.

Then listen to Dame Ella do that one...

Not saying the 'system' doesn't churn out a few gems...the bride has a couple of music degrees....and really can't understand how I can get lost during a 20 bar rest in Nabbuco...1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4, 3 2 3 4, wait that pretty cornet player has nice ...9 2 3 4...NO NO...

Manny Laureano · 03-04-2007, 10:36 AM

John,

You and I happen to be very much in agreement regarding the diminution of the interest in on the part of the general public in having a stake in education when the government begins to take ownership. The more the government becomes involved in supporting something the less John and Jane Doe have in supporting it because they'll take for granted that it'll always be there, so, why do more than have a passive interest.

You'll also find that we're in agreement when it comes to "talent will out". A working class child with a beat-up Pan American trumpet may grow up to become the principal trumpet of a major midwestern while a kid growing up in a family of means might not have the same passion and not take advantage of superior equipment.

I do have to take issue with a way of speaking that many people have that has begun to stick more and more into my craw.

When we throw a passing reference to talent or passion based on race we come perilously close to continuing the divide that keeps jazz and classical music and their enjoyment in a pocket. I've mostly heard that come that sort of rhetoric come from self-effacing white folk as a compliment to us brown folk regarding how little passion/understanding/rhythm... whatever... they have for jazz.

Can you imagine how ridiculous it would look for either Wilmer or me to say "Damn, we Latinos/Blacks just don't have it for Bach and Brahms like those white guys I've heard in those fancy orchestras"?

Now, I truly don't think that was your point at all. You were talking about passion and pain. The passion that feeds talent and the pain that causes expression. Am I right? I hope I got it because I think you're right, I really do. It was the parentetical "sorry, white kids" that kind of got to me. All it would take was a "sorry, black kids but you're no match for an Austrian kid playing Bach" and it might have gotten you banned for all I know. I guess all I'm saying is that I wonder if Billie Holiday would have been a less interesting artist without the addictions that killed her and left us wanting when she died. I honestly don't know.

John, this has been percolating in my brain for quite a while and you just happened to get picked today on that subject, so, PLEASE don't accept my questioning what you said as any kind of personal attack. I would be upset if you thought I was angry or anything like that. It's just something I've been wanting to talk about with you guys (the folks here at TM) for a while and your post provided me with the opening.

Bottom line: white folks don't have to put themselves down in order to make brown folks feel better about themselves.

Thanks for reading this extended post and for joining up with TM. If this discussion can stay cool it may be one of the most important things we talk about, maybe not, I don't know.

ML

03-02-2007, 07:50 PM	#22 (permalink)
Brekelefuw Forte User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,022	Re: Here is your Jazz Degree kid. Good Luck! A lot of jazz is very palatable, but I think that there came a time where musical mathematics, soundscapes instead of form and harmony became a regular thing. I think this separated the audience from the music. There is definitely musicians jazz and audience jazz. One reason Harry Connick Jr is so popular is because he is able to satisfy both musicians and the audience. He swings like crazy, writes great tunes and has great soloists, but his music is still within the realm of something that an average listener can understand. They hear harmony and resolutions, and even though they couldn't tell you that the band is playing a II-V in Ab major with a tritone sub on the Eb7 chord, they still get the emotional response from the tension and release that the harmony creates. There are also people who like to play as many notes as possible, or squeeks and squawks and write songs that are based more on harmonic and melodic exercises than on musicality. These songs don't sound musical to the average audience, and for some reason, make up a large portion of the general idea of what jazz is. The focus of some musicians is in the wrong place. Instead of creating musicality and emotional response in the band and the audience, they go for big displays of technical ability and patterns. It frightened me when I was the average music listener, and I'm sure it frightens others away from such a diverse form of music.

03-02-2007, 10:11 PM	#23 (permalink)
Dave Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Here is your Jazz Degree kid. Good Luck! .. Last edited by Dave; 04-02-2007 at 03:44 PM.

03-03-2007, 11:22 AM	#26 (permalink)
st. paulitan New Friend Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 29	Re: Here is your Jazz Degree kid. Good Luck! What about the role of media consolidation in the US? Why shouldn't local musicians performing in all styles, student and professional, have access to local programming on radio? Granted, there is some local cable access, campus radio, etc., but if local programming decisions are made at the national level by companies such as Clear Channel, then music at the grass roots may suffer. Bill Simenson

03-03-2007, 06:35 PM	#27 (permalink)
SSAce New Friend Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 1	Re: Here is your Jazz Degree kid. Good Luck! Wow...there are some really interesting ideas flying around this forum! This is my first post, I hope I don't stir up too much controversy, but there are a few things I would like to toss out here... 1. beartrumpet74 said..."As far as I'm concerned the major issue with jazz and schools isn't that fact that we are offering degrees for something that has a VERY hard career path, it's that we so often allow students to continue their study well past the point when it is obvious that they do not posses the skill, artistic chi I guess I call it, or the motivation to really make it ( by that I mean pay the bills and be happy) in the real world of music. I wish there were a good way to gently show these people that there may be better choices for them out in the world than that of a jazz musician or musician in general..." Does this sound like the thought process of a teacher to you? Yes, it is a hard road. If the student is made aware of this and still wishes to continue, then it is our job as teachers to take them as far as we can. I know I am not the next Ingrid Jensen, Charlie Davis or Louis Armstrong. I realized a long time ago that I would never be one of these players. However, I went to college and studied trumpet. I even earned a degree in it. After that I moved to the big city and met some wonderful people who took me under their wing and now I play trumpet semi-professionally. Along the way I met a few people who thought that those that "couldn't play" should just hang it up. I also met many more who were willing to teach those that "couldn't play" how to play. After all, if everyone could just "do it" then we would have no need for teachers. 2. Dave said..."Jazz is a difficult music for people to understand unless they have some experience with it. Same with classical, but in some ways jazz is even more difficult. I think we have to keep pushing for arts education in our schools if we want to maintain the affordability of arts." I agree with this statement. However, it is only difficult to understand because the musicians have chosen to make it that way. As we have gained more knowledge and technique we have not used the best judgement on how to employ it. For proof of this check out a Kid Thomas album. He is not a technicly "gifted" player but he plays the melodies in such a way that make you want to smile. It feels good to listen to him play. I hope that someday I can be in the same league as his big toe. I guess what I am trying to say here is, people work hard all day, they may not want to think harder for recreation. That is why many people like pop music. It has a good beat, you can dance to it and some of it can be disected for scholarly value. The jazz musicians who have had the most comercial success (Armstrong, Parker, Coltrane, Miles, Ellington to name a few) were able to find their own voice and perform in such a way that it didn't exclude the general population. Whew...well I hope I didn't ruin anyones day. I also don't want you all to think that I am some kind of dreary cloud. I really love all music, serious and otherwise. I regularly go and support live jazz and classical music and I think that my town (Minneapolis) does a great job of doing the same. Take Care Everyone Andy

03-04-2007, 08:24 AM	#29 (permalink)
John Conley New Friend Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 6	Re: Here is your Jazz Degree kid. Good Luck! I am, and will remain of the opinion that government funding for educational institutions is well meaning but can become nothing more than bloated government using civil servents to try and understand someone's someone's acedemic achievements over heat, soul, and desire. A simple study of artists, from Bach's time to the impressionists would serve as a reminder that much great art came from suffering and pain, having to believe so badly in something that one sacrificed everything in the pursuit of one's craft. Now some kid who's parents made him/her play like a circus animal, forced him/her to sacrifice hockey for scales, ballet for piano, recitals over trips to Disney, can make Mom and Dad proud and get a music scholarship, and maybe a strad to play. On the otherI hand I saw an inner city Detriot marching band with bent horns, drums with one head, and broken valves parade in Romeo Mich last year, and after the parade they, unlike the local (sorry all white kids) high school band didn't lay on the pavement in exhastion, but stood proud and played in a parking lot in 80 degree heat after a 1.5 mile march, and did that for an hour out of obvious love of music. Bet hardly one of them gets any scholarship, but bet you meet some of them playing horn in a jazz band. As I said about a beautiful, talented, silky voiced jazz singer to my friend who plays the keyboards, prissy missy is missing a herion addiction or having her boyfriend die in a car crash, she doesn't feel a thing singing that. Or maybe they need acting lessons. Try playing "Miss Otis regrets...." and just play the notes. Then listen to Dame Ella do that one... Not saying the 'system' doesn't churn out a few gems...the bride has a couple of music degrees....and really can't understand how I can get lost during a 20 bar rest in Nabbuco...1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4, 3 2 3 4, wait that pretty cornet player has nice ...9 2 3 4...NO NO...

03-04-2007, 10:36 AM	#30 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	Re: Here is your Jazz Degree kid. Good Luck! John, You and I happen to be very much in agreement regarding the diminution of the interest in on the part of the general public in having a stake in education when the government begins to take ownership. The more the government becomes involved in supporting something the less John and Jane Doe have in supporting it because they'll take for granted that it'll always be there, so, why do more than have a passive interest. You'll also find that we're in agreement when it comes to "talent will out". A working class child with a beat-up Pan American trumpet may grow up to become the principal trumpet of a major midwestern while a kid growing up in a family of means might not have the same passion and not take advantage of superior equipment. I do have to take issue with a way of speaking that many people have that has begun to stick more and more into my craw. When we throw a passing reference to talent or passion based on race we come perilously close to continuing the divide that keeps jazz and classical music and their enjoyment in a pocket. I've mostly heard that come that sort of rhetoric come from self-effacing white folk as a compliment to us brown folk regarding how little passion/understanding/rhythm... whatever... they have for jazz. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would look for either Wilmer or me to say "Damn, we Latinos/Blacks just don't have it for Bach and Brahms like those white guys I've heard in those fancy orchestras"? Now, I truly don't think that was your point at all. You were talking about passion and pain. The passion that feeds talent and the pain that causes expression. Am I right? I hope I got it because I think you're right, I really do. It was the parentetical "sorry, white kids" that kind of got to me. All it would take was a "sorry, black kids but you're no match for an Austrian kid playing Bach" and it might have gotten you banned for all I know. I guess all I'm saying is that I wonder if Billie Holiday would have been a less interesting artist without the addictions that killed her and left us wanting when she died. I honestly don't know. John, this has been percolating in my brain for quite a while and you just happened to get picked today on that subject, so, PLEASE don't accept my questioning what you said as any kind of personal attack. I would be upset if you thought I was angry or anything like that. It's just something I've been wanting to talk about with you guys (the folks here at TM) for a while and your post provided me with the opening. Bottom line: white folks don't have to put themselves down in order to make brown folks feel better about themselves. Thanks for reading this extended post and for joining up with TM. If this discussion can stay cool it may be one of the most important things we talk about, maybe not, I don't know. ML

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