TrumpetMaster - View Single Post - Baroque trumpet double tongue: authentic?

rowuk · 12-16-2006, 09:06 AM

Hi Sustained note,
authentic is a theme that I could write books about! I will try and keep this short!
I am sure there were a lot of different "tonguings" back then. Altenburg (German school) mentions Ti-ri or ti-ki for double tonguing and ri-ti-ri/ ki-ti-ki for triple. The French and Italian schools had their preferences too. I have also seen the "doodle" and many other guesstimates.
When practicing this stuff, recording it and then listening - the results for the audience are very similar regardless of technique. The most important part of the baroque trumpet is articulating in a way that reduces cracked notes. For me this generally means not as "brutally" as is possible with a modern trumpet.

You are also right about interpretations of tempo. Sometimes I think many music historians and conductors should learn how to dance before we turn them loose on music. There are so many dance patterns in baroque music that are ignored by the supposedly "authentic" readings. There are tempos that have nothing to do with the style, an extreme exaggeration of "micro dynamics" and asthmatic phrasing - but being being different seems to sell. So respected and qualified Nikolaus Harnoncourt is today, his earlier Bach readings are to me more of a castration than a stripping away the romanticism of earlier generations.

The argument whether or not something is authentic is really a non-argument. We can assume that every generation had its share of maniacs, and today it is hard to sort out who got the best press back then. I am sure that Bach was not one of the maniacs however. His understanding of the old church music regulations, secular influences, even something as radical as a well tempered scale, made him a pioneer, a melting pot of style and tradition. I have been studying his works for 30 years (I am 50 now) and still seem to be at the very beginning.

The next time a conductor asks you to play something more "dancelike" - ask him to demonstrate what he means. Great dancers phrase just like we do and reducing the first movement of the Christmas Oratorio to a fast waltz is probably NOT what Bach had in mind (but I play at least one performance a year where this is exactly what the conductor asks for - I do not try to change his mind in front of the orchestra - it never works. I just play the fast waltz for the first rehearsal and try and get some quality time over a beer or glass of wine to make some "suggestions" later). A double tongue for the 32nd notes was on the other hand probably preferred!

12-16-2006, 09:06 AM	#5 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,365	Re: Baroque trumpet double tongue: authentic? Hi Sustained note, authentic is a theme that I could write books about! I will try and keep this short! I am sure there were a lot of different "tonguings" back then. Altenburg (German school) mentions Ti-ri or ti-ki for double tonguing and ri-ti-ri/ ki-ti-ki for triple. The French and Italian schools had their preferences too. I have also seen the "doodle" and many other guesstimates. When practicing this stuff, recording it and then listening - the results for the audience are very similar regardless of technique. The most important part of the baroque trumpet is articulating in a way that reduces cracked notes. For me this generally means not as "brutally" as is possible with a modern trumpet. You are also right about interpretations of tempo. Sometimes I think many music historians and conductors should learn how to dance before we turn them loose on music. There are so many dance patterns in baroque music that are ignored by the supposedly "authentic" readings. There are tempos that have nothing to do with the style, an extreme exaggeration of "micro dynamics" and asthmatic phrasing - but being being different seems to sell. So respected and qualified Nikolaus Harnoncourt is today, his earlier Bach readings are to me more of a castration than a stripping away the romanticism of earlier generations. The argument whether or not something is authentic is really a non-argument. We can assume that every generation had its share of maniacs, and today it is hard to sort out who got the best press back then. I am sure that Bach was not one of the maniacs however. His understanding of the old church music regulations, secular influences, even something as radical as a well tempered scale, made him a pioneer, a melting pot of style and tradition. I have been studying his works for 30 years (I am 50 now) and still seem to be at the very beginning. The next time a conductor asks you to play something more "dancelike" - ask him to demonstrate what he means. Great dancers phrase just like we do and reducing the first movement of the Christmas Oratorio to a fast waltz is probably NOT what Bach had in mind (but I play at least one performance a year where this is exactly what the conductor asks for - I do not try to change his mind in front of the orchestra - it never works. I just play the fast waltz for the first rehearsal and try and get some quality time over a beer or glass of wine to make some "suggestions" later). A double tongue for the 32nd notes was on the other hand probably preferred! __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.