Originally Posted by kehaulani
I take exception somewhat (mildly, not passionately) to the criticisms of the criticism. What kind of discussion is it when everyone agrees? Where's the opportunity to have one's thinking challenged? Seems to me that's counter-productive to what a forum is all about - sharing ideas, not rubber stamping them.
Then why do you take exception to someone disagreeing with Local 357?
Last edited by trumpetup; 07-16-2011 at 05:49 PM.
If the downplay of those two artists would have been documented, then I would be all ears. Surely criticism of criticism should be allowed as much as criticism or criricism of the criticism of the criticism.
The problem here is the closed minded blanket criticism of world class artists.
The rubber stamp came from mr. local with no definition of "boring" or without passion. That does not match the personal experience that I have with both of these fine musicians.
Personally, I think that one has to have quite a bit of baggage to have to "put down" those two very successful players. I often question the motivation as not even being artistically founded, rather as compensation for personal issues. When we dig below the surface, the arguments usually quickly disappear.
Mr. Marsalis and Botti are a great inspiration to many players. They both have a great comittment to education. Not every "jazz" musician on the planet needs to start a new era like Miles or Diz or Chet did.
If the argument is a personal very narrow definition of what successful jazz is, then that is also open to criticism. The greatest accomplishment of our modern day is CHOICE.
I do not buy everything that Botti/Marsalis release on CDs, actually I purchase very little brass music anymore. Even if I don't think something is my personal state of the art that does not mean that I am in a position to judge "passion".
There are still those that prefer vinyl to CDs. They are the ones that aren't listening to the music intensely enough............
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
reminds me of the time that one troll came in rompin about how "miles sounded like a saxophone" *rolls eyes* good times.
super collegiate tri-tone (raw brass)
1941 Martin Handcraft Committee #3 large bore
Taylor Chicago Standard • Getzen Eterna Classic
Committees: '40 Handcraft MB, '49 Committee
Olds: a big pile of them • '73 Getzen Severinsen
'49 Buescher 400 • Yamaha 731 flugelhorn
rowuk, you seem to me to me be widening this into a broader agenda than is necessary. What I'm trying to say is that it might be more instructive to challenge Local 357's opinions and ways of hearing the music rather than anyone jumping on him for expressing that opinion. But I hear what you're saying.
As an aside, I'm not siding with Local 357 and I would have not rained on the OP's parade the same way, but as long as we're at it, I also find Wynton and Botti not as interesting when compared with other players of similar experience and chops, and that's not dissing two world-class artists, it's just expressing my reaction to their current music.
But rowuk makes a good point in that, regardless of how high or down on one's list of preferences an artist can be, there are always things to be heard, things to be learned and, frankly, things to be schooled on, by taking them seriously and listening to them in that light.
Back to the thread topic at hand, instead of worrying about Local 357, I would rather discuss Chris Botti and, perhaps as a contrast for the sake of discussion, Till Brönner, than to duke it out over Local 357's seeming lack of tack.
Last edited by kehaulani; 07-16-2011 at 07:28 PM.
You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Martin Committee (1956)
Connstellation 38B (1959)
LA Benge 3X (1970s)
Hans Hoyer G-10 Geyer Horn
I saw Chris Botti in Melbourne recently, and although I had a few CDs I was not a real fan. After seeing the concert, I had a different view-point. He can really play the horn, and does it without any real effort. He has developed the dark flugel sound on trumpet. He plays 300 days of the year, all around the world, and has done that concert for 7 years. Sorry, he has a following that is loyal, and an evening of entertainment worth paying $$$ to see. He is definitely an entertainer.
I cannot help but think there would be a GREAT concert to have Chris Botti and Herb Alpert play together, their similarily in effortless styles is very similar. I can hear Herb in his playing at times.
Criticism of Botti and Wynton? They are giants in their own right, done the yards and done the time to get where they are. Botti is niche, Wynton is a master. No criticism of either intended. I would pay again to hear either (CD, DVD or live). That is where the bottom line is.
I'm glad others have enjoyed the Chris Botti concert; agree with the OP - great music and musicians.
Why do I like a bell that Points UP ?
- because the spit does not run back into my mouth!
Trumpets are for extroverts - Lee Morgan
For the record, I know Till and he really does not like to be compared to any musician except himself. Maybe we should pick on Chuck Mangione instead?
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
My problem has to do with content. Someone says he seldom hears how good someone really is and another responds with that is because that player is "quite boring actually" and continues with: "The kind of trumpet player a saxophonist listens to. Not a trumpet player."
That is not the kind of "criticism" which stimulates a discussion, but rather is an inflammatory remark which provokes a similar response, which I, unfortunately, fell prey to. I apologize. Responding in kind is almost always a mistake.
I, too, welcome disagreement. Give me something to think about and off I go.
Chris Botti and Wynton Marsalis are both fine musicians,and successful to boot. As performers and entertainers they are the cream of the crop and make a ton of money. This often results in their being lumped in with others who, while they make tons of money and are really popular, may not be of or even near the same caliber musically or artistically.
Nothing is more contagious or tenacious than music. Once you are exposed it gets inside you and you can never get rid of it. It is also non-discriminating. It can be Ride of the Valkyries, In a Gadda da Vida, the Jeopardy 15 second thinking tune, your most disliked commercial jingle - it doesn't matter. Once triggered, off you go, like it or not.
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