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Trumpet Discussion Discuss Anyone Else Think that Big Corperations Have Killed the Industry's Excitement? in the General forums; Just so people know this was not meant to be political but I can see how their is room to ...
  1. #11
    Banned Mezzo Piano User
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    Nov 2008

    Re: Anyone Else Think that Big Corperations Have Killed the Industry's Excitement?

    Just so people know this was not meant to be political but I can see how their is room to make it such! Also it was not meant to a BASH on big business so much as a "Boy I wish they done this" or "I sure wish they had not done this" or I really miss X and the sound of X brand" etc..........So it is not menat to be over welmingly negative more of a "I sure do miss the good old days and this is what we lost thype of thing!" I just wanted to make sure people understood my intentions and the wounderful stuff that could be learned from this thread if it see's enough action.

    One trend I think is scary is how many small companies that have added pro-lines seem to try to copy the Bach Strad. sound when like many have observed their is nothing remarkable about their sound as compared to some of the trumpets that have come before them and are now lost to time! I personely cannot understand why anyone would one an OK trumpet that had a "Universal" sound over haveing 2-3 with distinct sounds that where best for their purpose etc........ I think it is hard for a trumpet to do allt ings good and is not worth trying to make one to all tings great! Jazz sound versious Classical Synphonic sound could not be more distinctly different so why try to make an ax that does nothing great but many things ok or good.

    I do not think any of the trumpet companies from small to large do a very good job marketing their goods this much I am sure of! I think too many companies try to make too many claims for one trumpet when pushing it to their customers to the point that it is almost impossable to select a trumpet or even narow them down based on company brochures etc......Since all of their trumpets are perfect for everything type of advertising. You almost have to talk with people that own them just to get an idea of what you want your local shop to order in to try out etc.........It really is like the old snake oil add's anymore where their snake oils where the cure for everything from sore muscles to cancer! Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how the brochures to day use a lot of words to say almost nothing objective! I am preety sure if I call Ken at BrassWerks and aasked him about his trumpet's he would give me a very clear brake down on how they sound and what they are best used for etc......

  2. #12
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Jun 2006

    Re: Anyone Else Think that Big Corperations Have Killed the Industry's Excitement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Markie View Post
    Hi lovevixen555
    I agree with you 100%. It is often that a large corp. will buy up a smaller company and dilute the product by cutting costs which can range from raw materials to workmanship.
    One of the reasons for the dilutions is to recoup the $ spent on the purchase of the small company.
    Unfortunately, when a large corp buys a small company, the large corp often replaces the management and along with that, generally changes the methodology of how the product is put together in an effort to become more efficient.
    Over the last couple of years, I have been approached by some of the largest corps in the music industry to purchase my small handcrafted trumpet mute,
    It is for this reason (the watering down of the product in order to make stockholders happy) that I do not wish to sell my handcrafted mutes to any corp. I'd rather have them made one at a time by someone who knows what they're doing verses some machine pressed piece of crap from some foriegn country.
    did Bach get watered down after being bought by Selmer? No! Why? Customers kept buying the product. As I said before Benge had a problem BEFORE UMI so they forced a change in policy to try and find something that customers wanted. The same thing happened to Holton. If you seriously look at the market, Schilke was able to continue because their products were superior, Bach kept their models because of the momentum. Things are nowhere near as pretty for Bach anymore since the Brand Blindness has now been extended to include a couple of other companies. Yamaha has really put a dent in pro market sales. So do we blame Conn-Selmer if they reorganize Bach?

    Nope, we are dealing with evolution and fickle markets. The fact that our economy is built on constant expansion does not help. We have to recognize that there is a point when markets are saturated and then some healthy shrinkage is necessary. During that period, only the popular products or the small companies with enough cash will survive. If you want a Benge or Martin, you buy the appropriate Kanstul OR call Felix at NYTC. It won't have the original logo on the bell, but the character can be preserved.
    Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

  3. #13
    Forte User B15M's Avatar
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    Dec 2003
    Monroe Ct.

    Re: Anyone Else Think that Big Corperations Have Killed the Industry's Excitement?


    I think Bach did get watered down. When Selmer took over a lot of the original workers left. Yes, they had the Bach design but how was the trumpet put together. (not really a question)

    The Bach trumpet is still a good trumpet. Based on the trumpets I have played (NY and Elkhart) the Selmer trumpets are not as good as the NY soooo, yes, they were watered down.

  4. #14
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    Clarksburg, WV

    Re: Anyone Else Think that Big Corperations Have Killed the Industry's Excitement?

    Hi Rowuk,
    Markie here, Generally I don't respond to a thread a second time but this need a little clarification since it deals with something I enjoy, economics and finance.
    While it's true economics (how the people behave in the market) is based on how rational people make decisions, you have to wonder how the word rational is defined.
    People generally behave more like cattle when looked at in the total or maybe better stated "herd mentality", when placed in the marketplace. This doesn't mean the product is better, it just means that marketing was able to herd people to their product verses the nearest competitor. The art of a corp isn't the product (trumpet), it's increasing stockholder wealth.
    If you look at the most famous example of something being altered after being bought by a large corp., Martin Committee is probably the best example. Another example is Holton.
    When I speak of shoddy workmanship and inferior materials I'm speaking of acids that are not completely removed from the pipes before they get lacquered, and/or changes in the metalergy.
    While it's true some companies have florished and done well, it doesn't necessariy mean that the product is better than it was 40 years ago.
    It means formost that there's a need for the product. As I stated before, the real art of a corperation isn't the product, it's increasing wealth. Through advertzing, distribution, and creative payment plans for those who live from pay check to pay check, mixed with a little luck, the large corp gets to increase stockholder wealth and remain alive.
    While it's not unusual for a small company to get absorbed by a large company, you have to remember the holy chant of business "INCREASE STOCKKHOLDER WEALTH".
    Aquired small company products not always change for the worse, but often do change. Changes in management style, different machinery, the raw materials used, level of workmanship, and assembly methods and finally how the product is promoted can all change at once or over a period of time.
    If I buy a small company and retool it to fit my business paradigm, and it starts to fail, I can retool it or close it and use it as a tax write-off.
    Unfortunately, once a small company gets absorbed by a large corperation, the personality and mystique (that part of the product that's intangible but very valuable, example: the cowboy on the Marlboro advertizements) will often suffer.

  5. #15
    Banned Mezzo Piano User
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    Nov 2008

    Re: Anyone Else Think that Big Corperations Have Killed the Industry's Excitement?

    A a marketing Minor I too agree with Markie especialy on his statement about "Herd Mentality"!!! If I have enough money to toss at advertiseing I can convince people to by the worst tasteing beverage and get them to purchase until they aquire a taste for it! Case in point Budwiser Beer in America is one of foulest tasteing beer's and under the German Puirty Law's for beer Budwiser of the USA not the Chezch product could not even be legaly called beer since it has rice and all kinds of stuff in it. They sell more beer then anyone else and they also spend more on advertiseing then anyone else inthe industry.

    People are fickle and once they get anidea in their head about a product being a "premium product" it takes a long long time for that idea to fade even if the quality goes down the toilet many outside a given industry will still think they are the gold standard to which all other's ar emeasured for a long time to come. This is the worth of a brand image and why brand names and model names are protected so fiercly in many industries.

    Many parents do not keep up with any given industry unless they work in it or it is a hobby of their's. So if Bach was the best in their mind when they where in school guess what they want for their kid??? In fact many people buy vechiles based on what they Grandfather or their Father bought with the idea of "If it was good enough for them it is good enough for me!"!

    In fact any company you can think of that makes a trumpet could double or tripple their sales with the right marketing plan. They just choose not to take part for the most part in their marketing. They relie onthe dealerships and rentals etc...... for a bulk of their profit and let the dealer's worry about how to market their product. This is an old old marketing model andone that I suspect will soon die off because advertiseing dollars are better spent when time is purchased in bulk and advertiseing plans work best when it is a unified effort.

    In fact just as a free bit of advice to any small company in this industry I would highly suggest Gorrila Marketing Tactics..... It is low dollar time and usualy time consumeing since it is at the grass roots level but for a company with next to no marketing budget it is often the most effective way to get started. This is much the same type of thinking that small political groups use to get the ball rolling. I have used this type of program withnot less then a dozen small business and in each case the company grew like made within about 30-90 days. Usualy you start to see results int he first two weeks and it exponetional grow's. Kind of like take a penny and doubleing it each day for a year etc.....Once your income increase's then the budget for advertiseing increase's and you keep evolveing the plan and the business model.

  6. #16
    Pianissimo User rdt1959's Avatar
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    Oct 2003

    Re: Anyone Else Think that Big Corperations Have Killed the Industry's Excitement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Oliver View Post
    You'll get no flame nor chiding from me.

    More variety exists today than in 1979.
    Boy, isn't THAT the truth! Growing up in Rural Nebraska in the 1970's we had two choices of Trumpet. Bach and Conn. Going to a state college, also in rural nebraska, we started hearing about new brands like Olds and Getzen. At they time, Yamaha trumpets where held in the same regard and the Chineese horns are today.

    Started my comeback 5 years ago and started looking for a horn.

    Benge? Kanstul? Eclipse? Flip Oaks/

    I bought a used Benge because it was the best I could afford. But boy...what a ride researching all the different makes of horns out there!

    Maybe the case can be made that certain brands or makes of trumpet have been "watered down" by big corporations. But the inverse of that argument is that the big corporations have opened the door for the small custom builder to bring us ever more creative designs.

    All in all, it is my (probably mis-informed) opinion that the trumpet industry's excitment factor is higher than ever before.

    Dick Taylor
    Comeback Player
    Benge 65B

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