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Trumpet Discussion Discuss Is this as bad of an idea I think it is? in the General forums; Thats a great idea! I tell you what, Ill apply "Magic valve" to some sand paper while i'm at it, ...
  1. #31
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Thats a great idea! I tell you what, Ill apply "Magic valve" to some sand paper while i'm at it, I'm sure that will help the instrument further!.....

  2. #32
    Pianissimo User dsr0057's Avatar
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conntribution View Post
    Since I'm also a certified Master Watchmaker I dunk my horns in the ol' ultrasonic cleaner every month and watch the crud just fly off.
    We have a winner! Love the Ultrasonic machines! Where I work we have a 50 gallon tank. Works I barely have to clean the casings out after running in the Ultrasonic.

    As per the OP: Ouch! That horn was unlucky to have such an owner! I wonder how many people actually buy this lapping compound?
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  3. #33
    Utimate User tobylou8's Avatar
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Blitz makes a "valve & slide' cloth that takes off any crud you can find on the surface. It's non-abrasive. How many clinks and clanks in that vid? A cold chill ran up and down mine spine every time I heard it.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by tedh1951 View Post
    We blacksmiths are much prettier than this plumber.
    I've always regretted selling my portable farrier's forge. tongs and stock as prior I had a small clientele for such services. Yes, I learned this skill at the "school of hard knocks" with tutelage by my maternal grandfather. On the farm, as just a teenager, I shoed both a Clydesdale and a Belgian. In Southern Maryland I shoed several standardbreds, a Tennessee walker, some Morgans, and some sulky racers. Truth is my health would not permit such work now.

  5. #35
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by keehun View Post
    Dr. Baldwin (of ITG and University of Minnesota) advocates for a smarter type of this process.

    He recommends the use of Lava Soap. Lather some on your hands and just apply that to the piston, and have "lap" it from the top and from the bottom.

    I used this on my near-strike-era Bach, which had very crappy valve movement. I did NOT over-do this process and I did it to the point where it would go in as I pushed it gently but not free fall back out. Before, it wouldn't even go in past maybe quarter of an inch.

    It really really made my piston movement much quicker, and it still retains all of its seal and has excellent compression.

    All the dinging around in that video is dumb, but if you do it in a smart way, I really don't think this is a "dumb, dumb, dumb" idea. Ideally you would buy a trumpet that has excellent piston work already, but sometimes you are just stuck with what you got.

    This (if done correctly) is one way to make the best of what you have.
    Why take more material off? If an older valve is sticky, you have to find the reason, not just knock off the edges. If the reason is mechanical damage, there may be no other choice but then certainly not the whole valve!

    If there is a build up of residue from petroleum based valve oils, then acetone removes the crap without reducing the compression of the valve.

    I stand by dumb, dumb, dumb because there is almost ALWAYS a "Plan A" without hurting the compression.
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  6. #36
    Piano User mrsemman's Avatar
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    All I can say is that I wouldn't do this on a regular basis. If the piston is dirty, you do not need to lap the casings. I was taught to lap valves/casings only if the piston doesn't fit and after expanding the casing. We also did not use the springs in the piston; and used a lapping compound. It wasn't used to clean the piston or casing.

    One thing to remember is that the pistons are made from brass, monel and may be nickel plated. Newer ones may be stainless steel, but they are all vulnerable to improper handling. The casings are equally vulnerable to dirt and metal shavings. Lapping basically uses the numbered piston to operate in that number casing, but lapping removes metal from both the piston and casing.
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  7. #37
    Utimate User tedh1951's Avatar
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Originally Posted by tedh1951
    We blacksmiths are much prettier than this plumber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Lee View Post
    I've always regretted selling my portable farrier's forge. tongs and stock as prior I had a small clientele for such services. Yes, I learned this skill at the "school of hard knocks" with tutelage by my maternal grandfather. On the farm, as just a teenager, I shoed both a Clydesdale and a Belgian. In Southern Maryland I shoed several standardbreds, a Tennessee walker, some Morgans, and some sulky racers. Truth is my health would not permit such work now.
    Thanks Ed - smithing is the first art form - blacksmithing is the penultimate refining of that art form. Blacksmiths were the first engineers - they made the tools that allowed us to make stuff - even trumpets eventually. As part of my training as an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer I took myself back to first priciples - blacksmithing, as much fun as making music, and just as loud. I operated a 40 ton steam hammer in the Railway Workshops at Everleigh Sydney - that hammer - on song - caused the local Railway Station about 400 yds away to jump - talk about power.

    Just a thought - the valve and casing will only have material removed at the same time if they are similar in hardness (softness) Monel is pretty hard, Brass is quite soft - this type of abuse will, I think, be more likely to damage the casing than the valve piston.
    Ted

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  8. #38
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    This guys next line of products will include high tenson springs so no matter what gets into your valves they will be able to power themselves through it ... similar to the 40 ton steam hammer.... followed by a salve for carpul tunnel syndrome
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  9. #39
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by coolerdave View Post
    This guys next line of products will include high tenson springs so no matter what gets into your valves they will be able to power themselves through it ... similar to the 40 ton steam hammer.... followed by a salve for carpul tunnel syndrome
    Funny enough, I was operated on for carpal tunnel - on my LEFT hand. Years of hard and soft springs didn't kill the right side however. Go figure.....
    Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

  10. #40
    Fortissimo User gzent's Avatar
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    Re: Is this as bad of an idea I think it is?

    Just to summarize-

    This video is showing someone lapping a valve (though in a clumsy manner).
    Lapping an old or "broken in" horn is only needed when there is a serious scratch
    on the piston. This is not part of normal wear patterns, but neglect or abuse.

    Valves stick because they aren't clean, the case has been deformed due to an accident and rarely because of a serious scratch.

    Hence, lapping is not something you would likely ever need to have done on a trumpet
    once the valves have already been broken in properly.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    PS/FYI - If you have a serious scratch or 'flake' on a piston that needs eventual replating, you can
    extend the life of the original finish by burnishing, basically smooth out the surface by forcefully rubbing
    it with a steel smooth, almost flat tool. This is NOT for the average Joe to attempt, but merely info
    on what you can do if you have the experience and patience to slowly smooth out the surface imperfections
    without removing metal.
    Last edited by gzent; 04-21-2011 at 11:12 AM.
    Stop acting like someone shot your dog.

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