Cleanliness issue

reversedlead · 11-27-2005, 09:01 PM

Hey Manny,

I have been working on the Kennan sonata (I know, not your favorite) but I seem to be having a cleanliness issue as higher volume levels. At times it just sounds sloppy, but when I back off the support, it seems to get better... Whats going on?

Thanks a bunch...
Brandon

Manny Laureano · 11-27-2005, 09:11 PM

You are overloading your ability to sustain a stable embouchure. It's either a problem with your lip strength or an equipment issue. When you are playing and you change dynamics, the basic sound should remain the same. If something changes, well... the horn didn't change and neither did the mouthpiece. What's left? Some mouthpieces will give you an ability to change dynamics rapidly, others don't. If you play louder or softer and the ability to center notes changes, that's bad. If you play louder and are suddenly playing flatter, you're going to split notes because you aren't centering. Same thing if you go sharp. The best is to maintan the same pitch center through louds and softs.

ML

Anonymous · 11-28-2005, 11:22 AM

Hi Manny-

I have noticed that if I feel like I'm trying to push a large volume of air at the high notes they don't ring at all and sound, well, pushed. But if I backoff and think of the airstream like a laser of very focused air and releases the high notes it works much better, timbre and intonation being improved.

Why is this?

Thanks!

Alex Yates · 11-28-2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peabodytrumpeter

Hi Manny-

I have noticed that if I feel like I'm trying to push a large volume of air at the high notes they don't ring at all and sound, well, pushed. But if I backoff and think of the airstream like a laser of very focused air and releases the high notes it works much better, timbre and intonation being improved.

Why is this?

Thanks!

No, I am not Manny, but I will chime in with just 2 pesos.

Very simply, you were overblowing with an unfocused embouchure and probably playing "spread". You corrected your apperature to the right size (by picturing "a lazor of very focused air") which increased the speed and focused your air. It seems as though you found that place where player and horn are happy up there. You found a way to work with the resistance and not against it. That is how to properly play in the upper register. Voila!

Manny Laureano · 11-28-2005, 01:42 PM

To put it even more simply, by doing what you did, you stabilzed your embouchure! You're keeping the nozzle at the end of the hose firm and not letting it lose its stabilizing energy.

ML

Alex, do I owe you any change for those pésos? I haven't checked the exchange rate although I know we're doing a little better these days!

Alex Yates · 11-28-2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Laureano

Alex, do I owe you any change for those pésos? I haven't checked the exchange rate although I know we're doing a little better these days!

I don't know Manny....can you break a 20?

20 CENTS that is....LOL. 2 Pesos equals just under .19 USD. Keep the change.

Derek Reaban · 11-28-2005, 02:14 PM

Peabody,

Alex and Manny have already provided the answer. When I run across examples that help illustrate the same piont I like to provide them when the question is asked. Here are some posts that I’ve made in the past related to this topic. I hope they will be helpful to you!

Quote:

I haven't seen this example before related to breathing, but I was thinking this weekend (washing dishes of all things), when this came to me. Consider a simple funnel. When you turn on the water to wash out a funnel, if the water is coming out of the faucet at a trickle, the water will just go straight through the funnel and into the small hole in the bottom and straight out. If you turn the water up just a little, some water will accumulate in the funnel and the small hole in the bottom will regulate the amount of water that comes out. If you turn the water up to "full blast", the water will overflow the funnel, but the amount coming out the small hole at the bottom will remain constant.

I use to feel like the overflowing funnel when I would play in the higher register! Unfortunately, there was no possibility for overflowing my excess air. The airflow would just back up and I felt the back pressure develop. After thinking about the funnel example and the reduced flow rate requirement for air on a brass instrument in the upper register, this really makes sense.

When the flow rate requirements decrease as you ascend into the upper register, if you continue to provide the same flow rate from the low register, that air is going to be like the water being on at the "full blast" setting going into the funnel. Maybe a better way to look at it would be to place your finger partially over the small hole at the bottom of the funnel mimicking increasing pressure in the upper register on a trumpet. If the flow rate is not adjusted accordingly, the funnel will quickly overflow!

Quote:

Consider an extreme case of high notes and low notes. A tuba player playing a loud, low forte in their range can expel between 140 - 160 liters of air per minute to generate this note. A trumpet player playing a loud, low forte in their range will expel between 6-8 liters of air per minute to generate this note. This flow rate has to do with the physical nature of brass instruments. If the tuba player jumps several octaves and plays the same note as the Trumpet player with a similar dynamic, the flow rate requirement will be between 6-8 liters of air per minute. All of this information is based on a study that Arnold Jacobs performed in a lab with brass players from the CSO back in the 1950s and is found in Brian Frederiksen's book.

If you can follow that logic, the same holds true for the trumpet as you ascend into the higher register. There is less flow rate required to generate the notes. In fact if you try to generate the same flow rate in the upper register that you do in the lower register, you will be fighting the physics of the pipe and the back pressure will be nearly impossible to overcome. The point is, you don't have to flow so much volume of air in that register. It's counter-productive!

Now, knowing this flow rate relationship to be true, think about your breathing when you are playing. If you have a long phrase in the low register, you will be emptying your lungs faster. Let’s say you are playing a phrase that requires 6-8 liters of air per minute in the low register. Most people have a vital capacity in their lungs of between 3-5 liters, so after 30 seconds of playing in the low register at a forte dynamic you will have empty lungs. If you play a similar 30-second phrase an octave and a half higher, the flow rate might only require that you expel 1 liter of air per minute. In this case your body is ready for another breath because you are at the point where the CO2 in your blood stream has risen to the point where your body says, "BREATHE!". But your lungs still have several liters of air left in them!

Learning how to deal with this is a combination of understanding what's going on (get Brian's book!) and practicing how to deal with these situations when you are playing in the different registers.

I hope this helps!

reversedlead · 11-29-2005, 01:27 AM

Ok thanks manny i think i got it figured out.

I think a part of my problem was that my horn angle was not correct according to my teeth, a problem i picked up from marching band. I corrected my angle (down about 15 degrees) and my sound was much cleaner.

Thanks a bunch,

brandon

Manny Laureano · 11-29-2005, 08:06 AM

Badabing... embouchure stability!

You weren't in the optimal position for you and accuracy, at the very least, was compromised.

ML

11-27-2005, 09:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
reversedlead New Friend Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 19	Cleanliness issue Hey Manny, I have been working on the Kennan sonata (I know, not your favorite) but I seem to be having a cleanliness issue as higher volume levels. At times it just sounds sloppy, but when I back off the support, it seems to get better... Whats going on? Thanks a bunch... Brandon __________________ Central Washington University Student of John Harbaugh Bach 37-25LR Getzen 3071C (soon to be Bach 229/25H) CKB 3C

11-29-2005, 01:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
reversedlead New Friend Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 19	Ok thanks manny i think i got it figured out. I think a part of my problem was that my horn angle was not correct according to my teeth, a problem i picked up from marching band. I corrected my angle (down about 15 degrees) and my sound was much cleaner. Thanks a bunch, brandon __________________ Central Washington University Student of John Harbaugh Bach 37-25LR Getzen 3071C (soon to be Bach 229/25H) CKB 3C

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11-27-2005, 09:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	You are overloading your ability to sustain a stable embouchure. It's either a problem with your lip strength or an equipment issue. When you are playing and you change dynamics, the basic sound should remain the same. If something changes, well... the horn didn't change and neither did the mouthpiece. What's left? Some mouthpieces will give you an ability to change dynamics rapidly, others don't. If you play louder or softer and the ability to center notes changes, that's bad. If you play louder and are suddenly playing flatter, you're going to split notes because you aren't centering. Same thing if you go sharp. The best is to maintan the same pitch center through louds and softs. ML

11-28-2005, 11:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
Anonymous Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,127	Hi Manny- I have noticed that if I feel like I'm trying to push a large volume of air at the high notes they don't ring at all and sound, well, pushed. But if I backoff and think of the airstream like a laser of very focused air and releases the high notes it works much better, timbre and intonation being improved. Why is this? Thanks!

11-28-2005, 01:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	To put it even more simply, by doing what you did, you stabilzed your embouchure! You're keeping the nozzle at the end of the hose firm and not letting it lose its stabilizing energy. ML Alex, do I owe you any change for those pésos? I haven't checked the exchange rate although I know we're doing a little better these days!

11-29-2005, 08:06 AM	#9 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	Badabing... embouchure stability! You weren't in the optimal position for you and accuracy, at the very least, was compromised. ML

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