decline of cornet soloists

_TrumpeT_ · 10-02-2006, 05:44 PM

What were the main causes of this? It startled me from time to time when someone told me that cornets almost replaced trumpets in orchestra and trumpeters had to comprmomise by adding valves and making their trumpets more conical. At one time great "cornetists" played in major orchestras such as Herbert Clarke. Sure, lots of great trumpeters made great cornet recordings (eg Carnaval) but I haven't heard of any great cornet soloist who specialises in playing those old tunes back in in the days.

40cal · 10-02-2006, 05:55 PM

I really don't have the history knowledge to answer you question. I can relate a story of when I was an undergrad my trumpet instructor told me I was playing too many cornet solos vs "legit" literature. Back then I loved to play those solos and still do. Needless to say, when I "forgot" to include him in the programming of my JR recital, he got the hint that I didn't care for his opinion too much.

trumpetmike · 10-02-2006, 06:03 PM

There are still a great number of cornet soloists - just check out the brass band world (Roger Webster etc).

As for why the major soloists started using trumpets I would guess that the improvements in trumpet design played a huge part in this. When cornets first appeared on the scene they were valved and ready to play whilst the trumpets were still in a state of transition from their natural state.

Vulgano Brother · 10-02-2006, 06:07 PM

The cornet is the banjo of the brass world.

_TrumpeT_ · 10-02-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trumpetmike

There are still a great number of cornet soloists - just check out the brass band world (Roger Webster etc).

As for why the major soloists started using trumpets I would guess that the improvements in trumpet design played a huge part in this. When cornets first appeared on the scene they were valved and ready to play whilst the trumpets were still in a state of transition from their natural state.

Sorry trumpetmike, but I was talking about the situation in America but I might be wrong about that as well. I'm aware of the strong tradition in the UK. I'm really a fan of David Daw's tone. I really should get his CDs.

BudBix · 10-02-2006, 07:25 PM

deleted

ecarroll · 10-02-2006, 08:54 PM

_TT_,

TrumpetMike caught you...we need to all remember that this is an international site. The cornet soloist is still flourishing indeed in the UK!

I'm hardly a historian and the following is filled with holes but mercifully brief (please excuse my randomness).

Consider the changes in musical society over the past 150 years. Many homes not only had a piano in the parlor but also were owned by people who put in the countless hours needed to play them, and play them well. Withought active music making there would be no music in everyday life (shocking, I'm sure, to our recent iPod babies). News of the latest operas from Europe could be found in the larger American newspapers but the only way to hear the latest from Milano or Vienna was via transcription, usually performed by touring wind bands (called "Italian Bands" since they were similar in instrumentation to bandas.

The cornet was a relatively new instrument at the turn of the 20th century. Virtuoso players such as Kryl, Clarke, Levy, and Chambers emerged, but what to play? Nothing had been composed for their new toy, afterall. Most turned to transcribing popular and art music, adding their own astonishing flourishes and variations. Music was heard outdoors, in the park, and in far more intimate concert settings than in Orchestra Hall. It was music for the people, not for the connoisseur.

. . . then King Oliver emerged from New Orleans. A whole new style of American art music was born and we never looked back.

On a related note, check out this old thread (one of the first) on my forum:
http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb//showthread.php?t=24591 (Chez Cornet)

Best, and I look forward to other comments.
EC

_TrumpeT_ · 10-02-2006, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecarroll

_TT_,

TrumpetMike caught you...we need to all remember that this is an international site. The cornet soloist is still flourishing indeed in the UK!

Well if I've been caught, I haven't been caught by surprise - I was expecting such an answer from trumpetmike. I'm well aware that places outside USA might maintain strong brass band traditions - there is at least one acclaimed soloist here in Auckland (in New Zealand) as well.

Has there been a gradual 'intrusion' of cornetists into orchestras? Also, the tonal concept may have changed over time. I've read that Arban initially used a deeper mouthpiece then changed to a shallower one giving more brilliant sound. As some people say trumpets became more like cornets and cornets became more like trumpets. There is a definite difference between the tonal concepts of Herbert Clarke and James Burke isn't there? (I can only tell from the recordings - which admittedly, might not reflect what they really sounded like)

ecarroll · 10-02-2006, 10:44 PM

_TT_

Jimmy Burke was a real, old-school, cornetist and I agree that cornets became more like trumpets for a bit (thinking of the various "long bell" models, and that some trumpets have become more like cornets (especially the high trumpets. Schilke once commented to me that his E2L was really a cornet).

Off topic, do you know a Kiwi trumpeter named Bede Williams? He was at CalArts last spring on exchange from the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama and a real pleasure to work with. Bede turned me on to the trumpet & MAX/MSP pieces of Michael Clarke.

Best,
EC

_TrumpeT_ · 10-02-2006, 11:19 PM

No, sorry, I don't know him. I really don't know that many people personally.

10-02-2006, 05:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
_TrumpeT_ Piano User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 312	decline of cornet soloists What were the main causes of this? It startled me from time to time when someone told me that cornets almost replaced trumpets in orchestra and trumpeters had to comprmomise by adding valves and making their trumpets more conical. At one time great "cornetists" played in major orchestras such as Herbert Clarke. Sure, lots of great trumpeters made great cornet recordings (eg Carnaval) but I haven't heard of any great cornet soloist who specialises in playing those old tunes back in in the days.
_TrumpeT_ Piano User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 312	__________________ Bach Stradivarius 180/37 Bach 7C "I built my staccato like the piano; low register with the warmth of the cello; lyrical melodies like the violin; running notes like the clarinet" - Maurice André

10-02-2006, 05:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
40cal Forte User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Minnesota Brand: Springer/Sig/Glock/HK Posts: 1,273	I really don't have the history knowledge to answer you question. I can relate a story of when I was an undergrad my trumpet instructor told me I was playing too many cornet solos vs "legit" literature. Back then I loved to play those solos and still do. Needless to say, when I "forgot" to include him in the programming of my JR recital, he got the hint that I didn't care for his opinion too much.
	__________________ “If there must be trouble, let it be in my day so that my child may have peace.” Thomas Paine 1737-1809 “That’s all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more,” Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd

10-02-2006, 06:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
Vulgano Brother Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Home Posts: 2,806	The cornet is the banjo of the brass world.
	__________________ "A tool good enough to be so used and not too good" C.S. Lewis That Hideous Strength www.letsbuildhope.org

10-02-2006, 07:25 PM	#6 (permalink)
BudBix Pianissimo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 172	deleted Last edited by BudBix : 10-02-2006 at 07:30 PM.
	__________________ Men govern nothing with more difficulty than their tongues, and can moderate their desires more than their words. - Baruch Spinoza

10-02-2006, 11:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
_TrumpeT_ Piano User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 312	No, sorry, I don't know him. I really don't know that many people personally.
_TrumpeT_ Piano User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 312	__________________ Bach Stradivarius 180/37 Bach 7C "I built my staccato like the piano; low register with the warmth of the cello; lyrical melodies like the violin; running notes like the clarinet" - Maurice André

10-02-2006, 06:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
trumpetmike Forte User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Farnham (a place too smal Brand: Whatever works Posts: 1,202	There are still a great number of cornet soloists - just check out the brass band world (Roger Webster etc). As for why the major soloists started using trumpets I would guess that the improvements in trumpet design played a huge part in this. When cornets first appeared on the scene they were valved and ready to play whilst the trumpets were still in a state of transition from their natural state.

10-02-2006, 08:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
ecarroll Artist in Residence Forte User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: NH/CA/PQ Posts: 1,380	_TT_, TrumpetMike caught you...we need to all remember that this is an international site. The cornet soloist is still flourishing indeed in the UK! I'm hardly a historian and the following is filled with holes but mercifully brief (please excuse my randomness). Consider the changes in musical society over the past 150 years. Many homes not only had a piano in the parlor but also were owned by people who put in the countless hours needed to play them, and play them well. Withought active music making there would be no music in everyday life (shocking, I'm sure, to our recent iPod babies). News of the latest operas from Europe could be found in the larger American newspapers but the only way to hear the latest from Milano or Vienna was via transcription, usually performed by touring wind bands (called "Italian Bands" since they were similar in instrumentation to bandas. The cornet was a relatively new instrument at the turn of the 20th century. Virtuoso players such as Kryl, Clarke, Levy, and Chambers emerged, but what to play? Nothing had been composed for their new toy, afterall. Most turned to transcribing popular and art music, adding their own astonishing flourishes and variations. Music was heard outdoors, in the park, and in far more intimate concert settings than in Orchestra Hall. It was music for the people, not for the connoisseur. . . . then King Oliver emerged from New Orleans. A whole new style of American art music was born and we never looked back. On a related note, check out this old thread (one of the first) on my forum: http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb//showthread.php?t=24591 (Chez Cornet) Best, and I look forward to other comments. EC

10-02-2006, 10:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
ecarroll Artist in Residence Forte User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: NH/CA/PQ Posts: 1,380	_TT_ Jimmy Burke was a real, old-school, cornetist and I agree that cornets became more like trumpets for a bit (thinking of the various "long bell" models, and that some trumpets have become more like cornets (especially the high trumpets. Schilke once commented to me that his E2L was really a cornet). Off topic, do you know a Kiwi trumpeter named Bede Williams? He was at CalArts last spring on exchange from the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama and a real pleasure to work with. Bede turned me on to the trumpet & MAX/MSP pieces of Michael Clarke. Best, EC

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