Trumpet Discussion Discuss Help Manny 10c to a 1c, and back again! in the General forums; Dear Manny
HELP I have a prolem and youre the most qualified to help me, not to mention a great ...
Help Manny 10c to a 1c, and back again!
HELP I have a prolem and youre the most qualified to help me, not to mention a great teacher. I still remember how you described triple tounging to one guy. Very elegantly put, and it helped me too.
First my brief history.
Ive been playing for 15+ years. For the first 10 years I was content working with a Bach 7c. After 10 years I started to gravitate towards a more dark rich sound so over the past 5 years I went to a 5c, then a 3c, and last year a 1c. My lip fills my Bach 1c nicely and I get about
2 1/2 hours of endurance playing constant.
Heres where it gets interesting Manny. About a year ago I started to play a lot of pro gigs and found I needed a heck of a lot more than a mere 2 1/2 hours of endurance, so a friend recomended a Holton Heim #2 (10c) mouthpiece, and I was in musical heaven to find that I could go as long as 4 hours on this mouthpiece! Since I've had this mouthpiece I have worked myself up to 5 hours or endurance which blows me away Manny.
During the week Sunday to Wednesday, I practise, teach the odd student privatly and just dont have the time to play for 5 hours a night. I have maybe 2 1/2 hours a night maximum because I want to spend the week with my wife and little girl. So I came up with the bright idea practise during the week with the Bach 1c for 2 1/2 hours and keep my lip in shape for the weekend. Because it seems to me as though I get the same physical workout and exastion from this as I would working with the Heim for 5 hours a night.
Here's the problem. I am having a heck of a time aclimating back and forth between the two mouthpieces. After working all week with the Bach, my chops are so big that they feel as though I am trying to shove 2 pounds of bologna into a 1 pound bag. This lasts for a few hours. Then after I work the weekends on the Heim, I feel as though I can barely fiil the Bach on Sunday. So whats a guy to do
Someone on here sugested that perhaps I drop the Bach and work the Heim, and I'd like to because my endurance and my weekend music jobs far outweigh my need for a dark rich sound.
A few tests that I have conducted for myself over the past few weeks are
1: Playing the Heim for 2 1/2 hours during the week, but this cuts my endurance on weekend performances, so I'm keeping away from this.
2: During the week play the Heim for 1 hr 15 min and the Bach for 1 hr 15 min each night. This seems to be working but I still have acclimation issues and this is driving me nuts!
Can you sudgest a mouthpiece practise schedule that would help me? Also my range hasnt improved in the past year. I can only reach A above high C, even though my endurance has improved.
Also a user on here (Study888) introduced me to a concept called Alpha Angle which is a new one to me. I did a little research on the www and it seems to me that its the angle at which the embouchure comes into contact with the mouthpiece. Is there a technique I can use (angle) to help me?
Thanks Manny...hope you can help
Rick AKA Trumpet Man
I'm not Manny, but I do have an opinion if you're interested. :)
First off, is there any particular reason you want to use the 1C?
It appears to me that the 10C has increased your playing tenfold, which is absolutely tremendous! Since you are happy with this mouthpiece and it is obviously of great benefit to you, my advice is to ditch that 1C!
Let me just state there is no macho feeling from playing a big mouthpiece, nor is there a wimp/cheater feeling associated with playing a small mouthpiece. Your lips have the focus to play on the small mouthpiece, and with proper practice you can get any sound you want—whether it be large, heroic wide orchestral sound to penetrating lead sound to soft yet projecting jazz solo sound.
You've whitnessed it yourself; your lips are swelling and losing their focus in the larger 1C. You're also having transitional problems because the chops are getting confused. I think you know the answer to the problem. It's simple! :)
Enjoy your playing on the 10C.
Please /join #horns @ Undernet IRC for the best trumpet (and anything else) discussion!
Thanks for your response
Theres two reasons I want the 1c.
1: I cant play 5 hours a night during the week and need the 1c to maintain my lip with a 2 1/2 hour workout during the week.
2: I love the dark sound of the 1c,...but acording to a lot of people I can get this with the Heim if I work that piece only.
Ya youre so right Syntax, my playing has increased 10 fold with the Heim in the past year, I just have a good permanent gig lined up and am afraid that if I play with the Heim 2 1/2 hours a night during the week, then my 5 hours a night of endurance on the weekends will suffer. But my chops cant keep going through this.
I do know this Syntax, I seem to be drawn (for some reason) to play the same equipment that Miles played. He played a Martin Committee and a Heim and my music is flying high on the same equipment I knew Miles Played a Martin Committee when I saw him in concert 15+ years ago (which is why I started playing) but I didnt know Miles played a Heim till after I bought it! Strange but true
Thanks for your letter my freind
Rick AKA Trumpet Man
I live just across the river near Detroit.
Where are you playing?
I've GOT to hear you!!
The Willard of Oz
"Don't be afraid to see what you see."
Mezzo Forte User
Help Manny 10C to 1C and back again
Hello Rick. The Alpha Angle comments I sent to you is not a playing technique. But is as I understand it the amount of bite that is in the inner rim edge. Lot up the chart info. on the Trumpet Herald site. It was put together with a new update by Mcamilleri. The post title was Alpha Angle Info for Various Makers of Mouthpieces Update. A lot of the players like the old mount vernon 3C bach mouthpiece. It has a Alpha Angle of 14 degrees. The newer 3C Bach and the older 10 1/2C and newer 10 1/2C Bach have a 18 degree alpha angle. Which for me. I like better. Maybe you can contact Kanstul or Mcamilleri. They may have a Helm #2 trumpet mouthpiece and can do a scan on it and give you all its specs. Are the company that makes this mouthpiece can give you all its specs. Is this mouthpiece a shallow, med. are deep V cup. Deep V cups with a low alpha angle like the Denis Wicks. Are usually played by fellows with well developed embrochures. How about sending us a side view and a look directly into the rim and cup. I would like to see what this bad boy looks like. Rick I just went to Music123 music store. They sell these Holton m.p's in trumpet and cornet. In silver and in gold plate. They also come in a #1 cup size also. There is a spec. and comment section on them. Looking at the side view. They appear to be the more older traditon and rim design like older Conn and King mouthpieces. With what some call the cookie cutter rim. Which probably means they have a high alpha angle and lot of lip support. they are very low priced even in gold compared to other brands. Hey what is one more m. p.'s. I might buy me one. But if I can play on it like you are saying. Forget em all and the dark sound. If the people like what they are hearing out of your horn to stay 5 hours. What more could a trumpet player ask for.
I also say stick to the Heim. It sounds like that's home for you, so, why leave home when it's comfortable living there and the familiarity of it makes you feel good?
Thank you my friend, so many have been telling me what youve been saying. I guess I just needed to hear it from the horses mouth...so to speak
Rick AKA Trumpet Man
Ok, got it...I thought alpha angle was a technique in which the embouchure came into contact with the mouthpiece . I was a little embarrased to ask what it was cause I have been playing a long time and thought I should know
Now that I understand what you are saying, it makes more sence to me. The Holton Heim #2 that is giving me all this great endurance is a V-Cup mouthpiece, and I just love playing it . As my understanding goes it is based on the mouthpiece that Miles Davis played.
I am very familiar with Kanstul and will contact them to see if I can get a sideview drawing of thier scanned verson af my Heim.
Great that you went to Music 123 andviewed the Heim and they have a high alpha angle and a lotta support.
Heres some specs I got from www.wwbw.com
#1 medium-deep / #2 medium shallow
#1 /#2: medium-wide
Inside Cup Diameter
#1: 15.85mm / #2: 16.00 mm
Outside Cup Diameter
#1: 3.96mm / #2: 3.86mm
For trumpet only. Has a very lyrical sound quality. The response is very even and smooth when playing in a two-octave scale.
Heck ya, buy one study888 they are very cheap. If your lip is well developed like mine, you should get about 4 hours of endurance and build yourself up to 5 hours in about a year like I did. I was advised to stay away from the Gold plate model however because its harder to maintain lip position because gold doesnt grip that well. Let me know if you buy one and how it works out for you!
Rick AKA Trumpet Man
Rick, you have gotten some great advice here, and although my post here might be of some interest, you have to really weigh it, because it's only what I would do in your situation based somewhat on my own personal experiences.
I too was using two mouthpieces and I was having some chops confusion.
My practice mouthpiece was a Stork 3C, and my weekend gig mouthpiece is a Schilke 14A4. I found that if I practiced too much on the 3C, I was losing the focus necessary to effectively use the 14A4 on the weekend, and to compensate, good ol' Flex Armstrong came in to try to help, which unfortunately made matters worse.
What I have done is to completely move to the 14A4 for everything - it's not an ideal situation - I wouldn't put myself out there on a legit gig with that setup because it's shallow enough that I still have yet to develop the accuracy that's necessary for that kind of playing. However, I'm not gigging legit, am I? Now that I am doing all of my playing and practicing on the 14A4, I have better focus, endurance and accuracy, and my sound has opened up a bit.
Eventually, I plan on getting a Schilke 14C4 custom made by Schilke - it would give me the same rim, backbore and feel, but it would be deep enough to allow for a somewhat fuller and and darker sound. For now though, I'm fine with using just the one mouthpiece for everything because for me and where the rubber hits the road, "everything" centers around playing rock band horn lines on the weekend.
Anyway, my advice would to stick to the mouthpiece that you use to gig, and to make and effort to get used to it so that you don't lose any endurance.
Back to the subject of my chops confusion, I chalk it up to the fact that the rim diameter and shape are totally different, the backbore is undoubtedly different, and the mouthpiece probably does not seat in the receiver the same - all factors which cause your chops to have to make some real adjustment in order to focus correctly and play the center of the horn.
As a side note, when I made the switch from a 14A4a to a 14A4, my A4a had a gold plated cup and rim, the A4 did not, it was all silver, and I took it to a buddy of mine to plate the cup and rim. That may have been a mistake because it changed the feel of the mouthpiece and it took some getting used to. It was like it didn't grip the way it did when I first got it and it may have been a mistake having it plated. Just a side note, FWIW.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
"At my signal, unleash hell."
- Maximus Decimus Meridius
I like reading your posts because they always are informing. You are one of my favorite guys on TrumpetMaster along of course with Manny, Wilmer, Study888 and a few others that have a lot of experience.
Ya you seem to have been in the same position that I was with your Stork and Schilke. The two mouthpieces are SO different and have been driving my chops nuts. I have decided to drop the Bach 1c completly and go with the Heim 10c. And also like you, I live for my weekend gigs as they are my bread and butter.
Sorry to hear that the Gold plating didnt work out for you Patrick. When I bought the Heim almost a year ago they had it available in standard silver and Gold. I was going to buy Gold but someone told me that the Gold wouldnt grip as well and warned me to stay away from it, so I did.
Miles played a Gold Heim but I suppose being the type of incredible player that he was, was so efficient on the trumpet that lack of grip for him meant the freedon to have more control over the Gold plated mouthpiece...if that makes sence.
I do have one issue that no one has directly answered Partick and perhaps you can give me some input on it. I have to perform for about 5 hours a night on my weekend gigs and have no problems with the Heim. However I have only about 2 hours a night to practise during the week. Will playing the Heim 2 hours a night during the week affect my 5 hour nights in terms of endurance? Maybe I should practise mostly high notes during the week to tire my lip out in a mere 2 hours? This is my MAIN concern.
Rick AKA Trumpet Man
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