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Trumpet Discussion Discuss hidden slot? in the General forums; alright... i know that every one is different, so i dont know if im just a freak or what... it ...
  1. #1
    Mezzo Piano User ltg_trumpet's Avatar
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    hidden slot?

    alright... i know that every one is different, so i dont know if im just a freak or what... it seems that there is an extra note between g above the staff and c above the staff played open just like the c and g, it bugs me because sometimes when i go to play that c, i end up playing that b or a or whatever it is... i now that this is a result of me not hearing the pitches before i play... which is something that im working on, however, i havent had a chance to sit behind a tuner and think about it... i was wondering if any one knows why this note slots in though, its really weird... thanks
    super collegiate tri-tone (raw brass)

  2. #2
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    Re: hidden slot?

    Arban's fingering chart shows it as a B Flat, but also notes all of the notes on that slot as "too low".

    I don't think it's hidden so much as probably best avoided.
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    Forte User bagmangood's Avatar
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    Re: hidden slot?

    Its part of the harmonic/overtone series on the trumpet (I can never remember which it is), its an out of tune Bb. can be useful for annoying trills
    Bb: Courtois 305 "Elite", Holton Al Hirt Special (~1966), Benge 3x with Upturned bell (1973)
    C: Bach C180-239 (Akwright conversion),
    Cornet: Conn Wonder (1900)
    Picc: Selmer Paris, ~1971

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    Re: hidden slot?

    It's the seventh partial. A very flat Bb.

    If you have to play a lot of lip trills and shakes, it's good to know he seventh partials (and alternate fingerings for them). They can make life easier sometimes.

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    Re: hidden slot?

    As everyone has previously stated, overtone series. Brass instruments function entirely on the overtone series. When you play open, you're playing in the concert Bb (or, for trumpet, C) overtone series. For a trumpet's standard range (F# below staff to C above staff) the overtone series you'll hear is as follows: P5, P4, M3, m3, m3, M2. when you start on C below staff, the notes that fall in the overtone series are C, G, C, E, G, Bb, C. Tuning is gonna be a little off on certain notes depending on the fingering you're using and the tendency of your instrument and your chops. In this case, the Bb is quite flat. You will never find a brass instrument without this so-called "hidden slot." It's just harmonic nature.
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    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: hidden slot?

    Here is Rowuks quick and dirty explaination of the theory of partials in an instrument.

    when we take a tube and buzz into it, the lowest note that resonates is one wavelength the length of the tube. That frequency(note) can be calculated by dividing the speed of sound by the length of the pipe. In dry air at 20 C (68 F), the speed of sound is 1,125 ft/s. A 4 foot long tube (not the length of a real trumpet, just here to make the principle understandable) will resonate at 1125/4 or 281.25 Hertz. This is in our case the "pedal tone" C.
    The next note up we achieve by OVERBLOWING the tube, then we have 2 wavelengths in the tube or 562.50 Hz. This is one octave higher or low C.
    More overblowing results in 3 wavelengths or 843.75 Hz for our 4 foot length of tube. This corresponds to the fifth
    4 wavelengths is another octave or 1125 Hz.
    5 wavelengths = 1406 Hz or a (bit low) third higher
    6 wavelengths is our fifth again(1687.50 Hz) - an octave higher.
    7 wavelengths is that (flat)7th that was mentioned by ltg = 1968,75 Hz
    and 8 is the next octave at 2250 Hz.

    For those of you that know that the tuning A is around 440Hz, you see that a C trumpet would have to be 8 foot long to make the numbers line up. The dicrepancy is due to the fact that pipes that are closed off on one end, sound an octave lower. We actually start playing on the first partial= 2 wavelengths. A clarinet or flute for instance, plays on the "pedal tone" allowing them to be half the length.

    Those of you that have played in church with the organ now know where the 8 foot, and 4 foot stops descriptions come from........

    Slots are physics. That is why I can relatively easily sort through the BS surrounding them.

    So, now we know that they are called partials because they divide the resonant column into PARTS.

    Harmonics are something different even although they behave mathematically similar.

    A vibrating object (like a column of air or string) can vibrate at more than one frequency at the same time. All of those vibrations are mathematically (=harmonically) related to the fundemental. The acoustic properties of the resonant object determines which of those vibrations is possible and how strong (loud) they are. Those "harmonics" and their loudness give each instrument its characteristic sound.

    To tie the concepts together: my harmonics are pretty much the same regardless of which partial that I play
    Last edited by rowuk; 06-20-2009 at 07:16 AM.
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  7. #7
    Pianissimo User R.A.S.'s Avatar
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    Re: hidden slot?

    rowuk

    What is a "Utimate User"?
    Shouldn't that be "Ultimate User"?

    Have you written any books that I can read?
    Ray

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    Moderator Utimate User Vulgano Brother's Avatar
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    Re: hidden slot?

    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.S. View Post
    rowuk

    What is a "Utimate User"?
    Shouldn't that be "Ultimate User"?
    Nice catch, R.A.S.!
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    Mezzo Piano User ltg_trumpet's Avatar
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    Re: hidden slot?

    very interesting to finally knw wth my horn makes noises... lol, maybe i can finally visualise those tones... unfortunately it is 6 am here so ill have to try that out later, thanks rowuk for expanding upon such an interesting topic...
    super collegiate tri-tone (raw brass)

  10. #10
    Pianissimo User R.A.S.'s Avatar
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    Re: hidden slot?

    6 A.M.?
    It's only 5 here, and I live in a townhouse with neighbors too close for practice.
    I've used a Denis Wick practice mute now for twelve years.
    I do take it out for performance, though, unless a mute is called for.
    (If the audience calls for a mute, I just ignore them!)
    Ray

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