Trumpet Discussion Discuss high register in the General forums; Manny,
I have a question about moving into the high register with tonguing:
Does the tongue place of tooh change ...
I have a question about moving into the high register with tonguing:
Does the tongue place of tooh change as you go up, or I mean should it change?? I have the hardest time trying to tongue G and up and higher speeds. The ideal place, as I have been told is right behind the teeth where the gums meet. I don't tongue there and honestly can't see how someone could because it's almost as if you have to forceably move your tongue to the back of your mouth in order to tongue there. I was told that as you change registers your tongue placement changes when you tongue naturally but I don't think mine does. Do you have any thoughts on this??
Re: high register
Originally Posted by Tarter_trpt8
What you're doing is confusing the very, very tip of the tip for the part of the tongue that is really responsible for the release of attacks. The part that articulates is really up from the tip maybe a half inch or so from the tip. If you were to say the word TOOH and do so with the very tip of the tongue yo would make a very strange face and the word would sound odd and contrived. If you say it like the number 2 you'll see the difference clearly!
Now, I'll say it again: I don't consciously change vowels from TOOH although I recognize that subtle changes do occur! The reason I don't do it consciously is because I don't see the need to exaggerate a normal occurance. I think it cheapens the sound of the upper register and robs us of volume when playing symphonic equipment. Lead playing in a jazz context requires a different sound because of the character of the music so, if that were my job I might operate differently. For symphonic playing I want all the fundamental I can get in my sound as there is no need for squealing in my line of work.
Even when I'm playing a 2nd Brandenburg or Michael Haydn in D I'm still thinking TOOH all the way up.
Double tongue with this different concept and see if it doesn't help. get out your Arban's and Mendez solos and go crazy.
To echo what Manny says from a different perspective. Most of my playing is lead playing and I do not change my concept of tonguing either. And for precisely the same reason. As soon as you start to think 'ee' you're done.
For example, if you start thinking 'tee' at high 'c', what are you going to do when the high 'f ' shows up?
I always think as open and relaxed as possible, regardless of the register. Do slight changes occur? Probably, but that's not what's important. What's important is the clarity and consistency coming out of the bell. One concept, one approach.
Manny is absolutely correct in saying that any conscious change of syllable will rob you of sound and volume. Why would you want to play into the upper register with a thin sound, no matter what the style?
To build this consistency, I use the Clarke Technical Studies book. Look at the Second Study. With a metronome, slur the line first, then repeat, tonguing the second time. Just because the books stops at C-G on top of the staff doesn't mean you have to. Go back to low Db and start playing them up an octave, keeping the same concept of clear full sound and clean clear attacks.
Well, there you are...
Two players with different jobs that think identically and with the same rationale. I, also, have used the Clarke's in the same way for the same reason and have said verbatim Joey's statement about high C and beyond.
Joey, would you say you are somewhat rare in your concepts among lead players or do you represent a mainstream of thought regarding working the upper register?
Thanks for the contribution... hey, where are the Brisbois duets? I got some time after dinner!
Thanks a lot Manny that cleared a ton of things up; especially the actual tip tip of the tongue not doing the work. People never tell you that though so I've never listened to it but always try and make an excuse for a lack of skill in certain areas.
Anyway, I have another question to add to that...since the actual tip of the tongue isn't what makes the attack, does that part of your tongue (the very tip) ever hit part of your bottom lip?? Mine hits my lip. Get your trumpet out and see if you feel it because I'm sure you don't think about that stuff anymore. These small issues naw at me and I need some claification...
Sorry to jump in, but I have a tidbit that might contribute to this discussion:
One interesting thing to see how much you use of your tongue placement to aid in high register is to flutter tongue ascending scales. See how high you can get before the flutter cuts out. When the flutter cuts out, it is because you are raising your tongue. I'm not advocating either approach (TOH vs. tongue level changing), but short of using a flouroscope, this is an effective way of figuring out what you're doing inside the mouth. It's also a good way to train yourself into focusing your chops more as you ascend.
Try it and let me know what you think...
I believe David Hickman posted this on the "other" site a while back. I have tried it, and it works. However, pay attention to your sound. If you start sounding pinched, back off. I also do not do this in the ultra-upper register.
That's really ironic. I study with Hickman currently, didn't see his post, and didn't hear it from him (got it from Charlie Geyer during my undergrad). Of course, I should have known he'd have that solution too, as he seems to have all the answers. I remember when I was first shown the excercise it was really interesting to me and I hadn't heard of it before or since. Great minds must think alike! Either that or I'm just dense...
I'm not sure how rare my concept is among lead players. But without going into a speech, I'm not trying to just play lead. I'm trying to play trumpet. I firmly believe good trumpet technique is universal.
When students come to me and ask about playing into the upper register, my first questions are "What are you practicing now for range (both high and low)?; and how often do you practice either exercises or music above high 'C'? Most of the time the answers are "not much and never".
The idea that range can't be learned is ridiculous. Just like sound, articulations, flexibility, etc. can be improved through good practice, so can range.
Sorry, I guess that is a speech.
But back to the point. There are plenty of lead/high note players who may use techniques specifically designed for the upper register. The problem is that as soon as your approach is tailored for a very specific part of the horn, the choices you can make both technically and musically become limited.
Back when I was in High School, the one and only time I worked on my range I already had a solid F. After about a week of "working on my range" I was down to a D.
That was that. Back to Arban's and St. Jacome's. In about a week everything was back to normal. Lesson learned. Kids that "specialize" too early are in for a world o' hurt, I agree. I don't like to see that. As you imply, learn the horn in a complete manner and let that take you wherever it takes you; jazz, classical, studio, solist, chamber, orchestra...
Good words, Joey.
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