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Trumpet Discussion Discuss Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register? in the General forums; Dr. Mark, I simply presented data as and how it became available to me. We have enough members that can ...
  1. #181
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    Dr. Mark,
    I simply presented data as and how it became available to me. We have enough members that can navigate the german language, so maybe you can get some help there. I wasn't trying to be smart ass. The data is VERY interesting. I don't read arabic, so the chance of me even being able to judge the quality is so low that I probably wouldn't present anything unless it was very graphic (in a scientific way of course). Criticizing the ability to read a CT or the endoscopy data without having read and understood the conclusions (or even knowing who the people were and there qualifications) doesn't help make any point.

    The chance of me finding time anytime soon to help those not strong in german is zero. I would prefer to invest my time before and around Easter in more practicing. Maybe some of you out there have some time and the skill. The arguments are very powerful and the images too the point. There is a lot of stuff still uncovered and I will be talking to them about adding a chapter.


    As far as my take on the tongue, I thought that I detailed that fairly early on. With my standard Bb, C or picc instruments, I notice little tongue except articulation. My tktktktktkt seems consistent in any octave. On the baroque or natural trumpet, I notice the tongue fairly high in the mouth and also notice its use for liptrills. The difference could be fine tuning as on the nat the notes are VERY close together. On instruments that many consider standard, I have the impression that the lips are doing most of the work. I don't think about tongue position except abstractly here. The data that I quoted seems to support my "feeling", but interpretation of scientific data is not a knee jerk thing. It takes time to understand and I will interview the doctors (in german) and see what else that I can glean.
    Sethoflagos likes this.
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  2. #182
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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    Dr. Mark,
    I simply presented data as and how it became available to me.
    ---
    Thank you!
    ---
    We have enough members that can navigate the german language, so maybe you can get some help there. I wasn't trying to be smart ass. The data is VERY interesting.
    ---
    Not once have I seen someone on this site correspond in German but that's okay. I tried to convert the language but couldn't possibly you could summarize as you've read it?
    ---
    I don't read arabic, so the chance of me even being able to judge the quality is so low that I probably wouldn't present anything unless it was very graphic (in a scientific way of course).
    ---
    okay
    ---
    Criticizing the ability to read a CT or the endoscopy data without having read and understood the conclusions (or even knowing who the people were and there qualifications) doesn't help make any point.
    ---
    May I'm just Fifty Shades of Stupid but It looks like possibly the conclusion is written in German! I don't read German
    ---
    The chance of me finding time anytime soon to help those not strong in german is zero.
    ---
    Well then, there it is. You might want to check CiteSeerX and academic literature in lingustics. It will help get you back into using English lit sites when you bring something to the table.
    ---
    I would prefer to invest my time before and around Easter in more practicing.
    ---
    Okay, you need to practice. What are you doing typing to us that you need to practice when you should be practicing?
    ---
    Maybe some of you out there have some time and the skill.
    ---
    But you seem to not? Why are you still typing!! Why aren't you practicing? I'm confused?
    ---
    The arguments are very powerful and the images too the point. There is a lot of stuff still uncovered and I will be talking to them about adding a chapter.
    ---
    For Pete's sake. First you don't have time and you NEED to practice and now you're saying you're gonna fetch up some more stuff.
    How about this: Slowily move away from the computer and GO PRACTICE!!
    ---
    As far as my take on the tongue, I thought that I detailed that fairly early on. With my standard Bb, C or picc instruments, I notice little tongue except articulation. My tktktktktkt seems consistent in any octave. On the baroque or natural trumpet, I notice the tongue fairly high in the mouth and also notice its use for liptrills. The difference could be fine tuning as on the nat the notes are VERY close together. On instruments that many consider standard, I have the impression that the lips are doing most of the work. I don't think about tongue position except abstractly here. The data that I quoted seems to support my "feeling", but interpretation of scientific data is not a knee jerk thing. It takes time to understand and I will interview the doctors (in german) and see what else that I can glean.
    ---
    Lifting the tongue, Tongue arch, speeding up the air by using the tongue (or whatever term it goes by when the tongue is used to speed up the air in the upper register) and the discission about it pertains to those who USE this method. You've made it clear that you don't do that. That's cool. But that doesn't mean that thousands of others don't. I know I do and it's what I teach. James Morrison advocates the tongue in the upper register, and a ton of others out there. The fly in the ointment for those that advocate this method is the contention that "faster air" creates the change in pitch. That appears to be incorrect. There's a lot more to it but when the tongue is used (in the method discussed, up and forward to speed up the air ) it appears that the tongue & jaw are attached and by moving the tongue in this up and forward direction the question becomes, does the jaw tend to follow? If so, then lips are put closer together. This helps satisfy the idea that aperture size is paramount in developing various pitches. "Faster air" appears to be the mechanism that gets the very tiny aperture to oscilate. Interestingly, six pack abs are of little use in this situation. In fact, blowing too hard (more air which should not to be confused with faster air) with this method will either plug the aperture or the sound will become "airy"(pending it's not because of mouthpiece pressure or a combination of the two). What you say about standing wave, feedback and resonance, I have no issue with and agree with. From generator to resonator.
    Are you still reading this! GO PRACTICE!
    Dr.Mark

  3. #183
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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    I'm confused.

    Rowuk uses the tongue on his natural. On his standard Bb, picc and C he doesn't really notice movement.

    Maybe it moves to some degree, just does not notice it as much as he does on the Natural. Also going back to first page posts (somewhere there) I do remember Rowuk saying something along the lines of "we use our tongues because it is in our mouth"

    So whats the problem here?

    I believe in using it, Mark agrees with all the world class players that have musical authority that state to use it, Rowuk never actually said "don't use it". Sounds to me everyone agrees the tongue is used.

    So whats the fuss all over then? This is why I'm confused.

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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gxman View Post
    I'm confused.

    Rowuk uses the tongue on his natural. On his standard Bb, picc and C he doesn't really notice movement.
    Maybe it moves to some degree, just does not notice it as much as he does on the Natural. Also going back to first page posts (somewhere there) I do remember Rowuk saying something along the lines of "we use our tongues because it is in our mouth"
    So whats the problem here?
    I believe in using it, Mark agrees with all the world class players that have musical authority that state to use it, Rowuk never actually said "don't use it". Sounds to me everyone agrees the tongue is used.
    So whats the fuss all over then? This is why I'm confused.
    ---
    Hi Gxman,
    The confusion is that this applies to individuals that use the tongue to speed up the air.
    Rowuk contends he does not appear to do this on Bb.
    Rowuk contends that he can find no info to support that the tongue has any effect on the embrouchure. Rowuk then goes on and contends that "I don't have time to waste on things that I previously have tried without "results". I am having too much fun with what I have worked out over the years - not fumbling with symptoms, rather attacking root evils."
    I don't find what's being discussed a waste of time and it's a bold un-nice statement to say so.
    For me, it's better to constructively add to the discussion than to try and tear it down with rowuk-isms flavored with condescention.
    Dr.Mark

  5. #185
    Fortissimo User Sethoflagos's Avatar
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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    Maybe we let this topic rest for a couple of weeks.
    Bb Trumpets: Yamaha YTR-6335HSII - Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" - 1972 Getzen Eterna "Severinsen" - 1980 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign Studio - B&S 3005 WTR-L - 1963 Besson 10-10 - Monke Mystery Horn - Spiri Vario
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  6. #186
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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    watching that third video over and over made me notice that on the higher notes, the subject's tongue was closer to the roof of the mouth.
    not by much, but on the fast double-tonguing, it was VERY apparent.

    Watch again...maybe I'm just seeing things.

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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    Quote Originally Posted by dangeorges View Post
    watching that third video over and over made me notice that on the higher notes, the subject's tongue was closer to the roof of the mouth.
    not by much, but on the fast double-tonguing, it was VERY apparent.
    Watch again...maybe I'm just seeing things.
    ---
    Hi dangeorges,
    That's cool! pending you're just not seeing things.
    It appears that there are at least two ways to speed up the air to get the aperture started:
    1. Use abdominal muscles
    2. Use the tongue
    Are there other ways to speed up the air to get the aperture started? I can't think of any.
    I look at abs and tongue this way:
    Both can speed up the air but generally
    1. Tension from the abs are for support and volume
    2. Tongue is for articulation and speeding up the air
    One of the interesting things to look at is if a person says they do not use their tongues in such a manner, then ask how do they get the air up to the necessary speed to play in their upper register?
    Dr.Mark

  8. #188
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    I am going to let this rest permanently. I have no interest in spoon feeding anyone. There are enough possibilities to get the presented info, if one is interested.

    I stopped responding to Dr. Mark previously because I have no interest in evangelizing and had no more interest in his very lopsided take of things. History repeats itself. For those of you that have found something of use in this thread, great - no questions or criticism. I still have my doubts. They have been adequately covered. Bye.


    P.S. in spite of wasting time responding to Dr.Mark, I did get 3 hours in today. I do respectfully request that if I am quoted, that it be in context.
    Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    I am going to let this rest permanently.
    ---
    We'll see
    ---
    I have no interest in spoon feeding anyone.
    ---
    You've not had anything on that spoon for a while now.
    ---
    There are enough possibilities to get the presented info, if one is interested.
    ---
    Right!
    ---
    I stopped responding to Dr. Mark previously because I have no interest in evangelizing and had no more interest in his very lopsided take of things.
    ---
    Then why post? You're posting to tell me, us, them, that you aren't posting anymore? Why aren't you practicing? Are you sure you practiced. I think you need more. Nope, I'm sure you need more. GO PRACTICE!
    ---
    History repeats itself.
    ---
    The Rain In Spain Falls Mainly On The Plain?
    ---
    For those of you that have found something of use in this thread, great - no questions or criticism. I still have my doubts. They have been adequately covered. Bye.
    ---
    B-Bye!
    ---
    P.S. in spite of wasting time responding to Dr.Mark, I did get 3 hours in today. I do respectfully request that if I am quoted, that it be in context.
    ---
    P.S.? Just "Bye" will do.
    Dr.Mark

  10. #190
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    Re: Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post

    P.S. in spite of responding, I did get 3 hours in today. I do respectfully request that when I am quoted, that it be in context.
    Hi Rowuk,

    Are you saying that Dr. Mark took what you said out of context, meaning, you are not contending that the tongue does do things and thus agree that the tongue in fact does do stuff?

    Mark,

    To clarify what you are getting at, are you saying Rowuk is trying to say tongue does not have any effect on embouchure or speed or air?

    If both are right...

    I can give you one simple problem.

    If you just move the tongue by it-self, isolated, Rowuk would be right. It does not effect the embouchure one bit (at least it is not noticeable), however, your embouchure changes while you talk and shape your vowels and consonant's as does the tongue to form those sounds correctly. So if the tongue is used correctly, and you allow the rest of the system (jaw, embouchure etc) to do what it would do by the movement of the tongue, then it does do something.

    Isolating the tongue completely from the picture (jaw, embouchure etc) and saying "there you go does not effect embouchure" as I did, on 2nd or 3rd page when I first tried it, is incorrect way of playing in the first place, and the body does not work that way either, so that is an invalid point.

    Another point I can make having been more conscious of all this since I started to look at this thread, is this: When you 'do not move the tongue' and only go to move the embouchure etc to produce higher notes, your tongue, whether you like it or not, will move and not sit in the identical position it did on the low notes. This I noticed with myself. When I 'thought' I isolated the tongue and just moved my embouchure to achieve the notes... the tongue actually did move because everything else did. So you can either move your embouchure and jaw and air, which will by default move your tongue, or, you can move your tongue like you do every day when you walk, to channel and shape the air, which will by default move your embouchure and jaw.

    Which again comes back to the point I made near the beginning of this thread: Why only play with embouchure (which is the last phase before a sound is produced - once air leaves mouth, that is the end of controlling it) when you can control/channel it via the tongue BEFORE it leaves the mouth giving you more stability and consistency?

    Here is my finding, which regardless of what videos and hear-say you give regarding it (3rd hand information), I got my own mouth my own tongue to test this myself.

    Using the embouchure only and no tongue: As you go to G above the staff, or even try to go higher (for me which is my limit) the use of embouchure alone still places the tongue in a different position to the one it was in when I was at a low C. It is like the movement of air, strengthening the embouchure and different placement of the jaw to go up in notes forces the tongue to move accordingly to everything else the anatomy is doing, that's how the mechanics of the Anatomical system works. That is why when we talk, mouth, tongue etc all change. So to say tongue is "100% isolated" is wrong. It still moves in your mouth whether you are aware of it or not. I would also like to add, it is being used in the wrong context for you are focusing on the lip (which is when the air leaves the mouth) rather than shaping it before it leaves (aka tongue) So basically you are making the lip and jaw move the tongue rather than the other way around. You will over-work. The fine tuning the lip needs to do to go from one harmonic to another as you get higher, is over-compensated when only the lip is being used to achieve this.

    Using the tongue only and not the embouchure: By using the tongue only does nothing to the change in sound, but also, the body does not naturally work this way anyway, so the point is not even valid to discuss let alone to prove anything.

    Using the tongue in harmony with the embouchure: By using the tongue the way your body naturally works, and thus not isolating it from the embouchure, we get the happy medium where everything does what it is supposed to do. Making the vowel shaped sounds, your jaw, and embouchure naturally 'change' position. The tongue also when you make a vowel sound changes position and thus you allow it to do so rather than "no I want to prove it does nothing" and isolating it from the system. That is handicapped playing as your body does not naturally do that to begin with. It is forced to do that by your stubborn head trying to prove some point that is not even valid. So here where tongue and embouchure work together (as advocated by world class players ever since Arban) we are able to control very minor movements the lip and jaw needs to make to change harmonics without over-working the embouchure. Here we have much finer control of our embouchure and the needed subtle changes to transition from one note to another.

    Example to put the above points into perspective:

    I have a telescope. On the telescope, where the eyepieces go in to view the vast space above us, there are 2 tuning knobs. Both are actually connected together. So whether you turn the big wheel or the little wheel, both will turn regardless. Also the turning of the wheel actually slides the eyepiece holder closer to the scope or further from the scope.

    Lets look at the big wheel as embouchure and the little wheel as the tongue.

    To get to focus quickly, I do not worry about the little wheel, I just use the big wheel, larger wheel moves the focus mechanism closer/further much faster than the little wheel. Did the little wheel spin or did it sit dormant? It also spun as it is connected to it. Just like your tongue is connected to the face, when you move the embouchure (big wheel) to make things happen faster, the tongue still does move accordingly.

    However - Now that I am close to focus, I want to fine-tune the focus to get it 'just right'. To do that, I can not use the big wheel but the small wheel. You must turn the small wheel a lot more times around before a noticeable change occurs. This is like our tongue. When that minor change is needed as the gaps in harmonics are getting much closer together, we use our tongue to fine tune that. Does the big wheel turn when I turn the little one? Yes, but much less turns occur on the big one compare to small one. Think of that as your lip, when you move the tongue, smaller movements occur in the embouchure than had you focused on the lip itself (big wheel) and thus finer-tuning is available. So, when gaps get closer together, why turn the embouchure up (Big wheel) when all I need to do is move the tongue (small wheel) for that fine adjustment to occur in the embouchure? There is less stress on the lips as you are not over-working, over-compensating by trying to muscle everything into position.

    Conclusion:

    The tongue has it's place, it is in the mouth, and does effect things. For the last hundreds of years, this has known to be the case. To advocate any different is just plain ignorance.
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