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Trumpet Discussion Discuss Jerome Callet in the General forums; Originally Posted by dbacon Patrick, What's the biggest priority in trumpet playing? In other words, what's the point? Thanks for ...
  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacon
    Patrick,

    What's the biggest priority in trumpet playing?

    In other words, what's the point?

    Thanks for the dialogue!
    Hi,
    {my 2 cents}
    I completely agree with you. Making great music/playing musically the biggest priority in trumpet playing; i.e. the "point". However, if your range, flexibility, and endurance were suddenly and dramatically increased, would this automatically cause you to play "un-musically".

    For instance, Robert Civiletti, wrote; "The whole idea behind the Tongue Controlled Embouchure is to build a "Virtuoso Embouchure" that will enable you to practice those difficult passages over and over again." I am sure he was relating "those difficult passages" to the extremely high/difficult baroque literature.

    I guess what I am getting at is that no embouchure will cause/force someone to play "unmusically" or by the same token "musically". All that is up to the individual player. I have heard about 5 people play with embouchures that were developed with the help of Mr. Callet; and none of them sounded the exactly the same. In addition, some of them sounded completely different. Mr. Callet's method does not force you play a certain way, he allows you to develop a powerful tool (an embouchure).

    In conclusion, if I hear someone playing with no musicality, my immediate thought is not, "It is the embouchure's fault". It is the fault of the player. That would be like saying an axe murderer kills people because he has strong arms.

    I hope you can make sense of my jumbled rantings,
    Thanks,
    Robert

  2. #22
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    Seems to me that, where the lip/mouthpiece interface is involved, the physics of the thing is in control. If I understand this correctly, the source of sound is a vibrating lip which produces harmonic waves [some anticipated and some not] which in turn are magnified [or not] by the horn. The ones the horns magnifies are the “notes” you play, the rest are “noise.” [or vice versa]

    As you move to higher and higher notes, the mass of the vibrating portion of the lip must be reduced or the velocity of air necessary must increase in order to over come the loss of energy resulting from the higher vibration frequencies [or both]. As I see it players generally resolve this by increasing lip pressure [either against the mouthpiece or just the lips themselves or a combination of both] which reduces the aperture in order to produce higher vibration frequencies while increasing air velocity. There are, of course, a number of other inputs to consider [somewhere else, thank you].

    Higher air velocity aids lip vibration. Smaller mouthpieces reduce length of vibrating lip. These are givens and must be dealt with as notes change also. But if, all other things remain the same, and you try to produce notes in the triple C range, the pressure holding the lips together approaches an approximate two hundred times the pressure needed to play a below the clef C. Lip pressure is only a partial answer here as is mouthpiece size. Same sort of result occurs with air velocity.

    Seems the goal is to figure out how to reduce vibrating lip mass, increase air velocity, and maintain a decent tone [overtones] while producing music. I guess my question [restated] is whether Jerome Callet has something to offer in my search for the ability to play a trumpet [as opposed to play with] through his approach to embouchure development?

    Just because he and/or his methods are different, has little or nothing to do with the value of his method to me.

    Consider Galileo who was opposed by all in his position that the earth was round.
    Consider the Wright brothers who were able to fly, notwithstanding the opposition.

    By the way, my favorite Einstien quote is: "Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy."

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacon
    Patrick,

    What's the biggest priority in trumpet playing?

    In other words, what's the point?

    Thanks for the dialogue!
    Dave, your question is as subjective and highly debatable as Superchops.

    You tell me, what IS the biggest priority in trumpet playing? You could answer this both practically or philosophically, and it would also depend upon the purpose for playing.

    My question to you Dave is how does your question pertain to our discussion of Jerry Callet or the Superchops method? As it stands right now, I don't see that it pertains at all. The Superchops method for some is a means to an end: build a strong embouchure that produces a good sound and doesn't limit your capability to play any kind of music at any time due to range or endurance issues. If you are suggesting that the biggest priority of trumpet playing is sound, or that the biggest priority is to be able to play musically and with control, Superchops may well be the best means to that end.

    Unfortunately, there isn't ANY embouchure method that is going to help you play musically. One can learn musical concepts and play the music off the page technically perfect and yet still be unmusicial. Playing musically is something that comes from within and is nurtured through time and experience, both life experience and experience playing.

    So, instead of asking ambiguous questions that seemingly neither pertain to, nor contribute to this discussion, you tell us what you think the biggest priority in trumpet playing is, and how it relates to the subject of Jerry Callet and Superchops.

    Oh yeah, I also want to know:

    1.) Can you consistently play (and I mean PLAY, in tune and with a clean, clear sound, not just "hit") DHC and higher with no endurance issues
    2.) If the answer to #1 is "yes" are you using an embouchure that is: a.) completely different than Superchops, b.) Very similar to Superchops.
    Patrick Gleason

    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"
    "At my signal, unleash hell."
    - Maximus Decimus Meridius

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by trickg
    Quote Originally Posted by dbacon
    Patrick,

    What's the biggest priority in trumpet playing?

    In other words, what's the point?

    Thanks for the dialogue!
    Dave, your question is as subjective and highly debatable as Superchops.

    You tell me, what IS the biggest priority in trumpet playing? You could answer this both practically or philosophically, and it would also depend upon the purpose for playing.

    My question to you Dave is how does your question pertain to our discussion of Jerry Callet or the Superchops method? As it stands right now, I don't see that it pertains at all. The Superchops method for some is a means to an end: build a strong embouchure that produces a good sound and doesn't limit your capability to play any kind of music at any time due to range or endurance issues. If you are suggesting that the biggest priority of trumpet playing is sound, or that the biggest priority is to be able to play musically and with control, Superchops may well be the best means to that end.

    Unfortunately, there isn't ANY embouchure method that is going to help you play musically. One can learn musical concepts and play the music off the page technically perfect and yet still be unmusicial. Playing musically is something that comes from within and is nurtured through time and experience, both life experience and experience playing.

    So, instead of asking ambiguous questions that seemingly neither pertain to, nor contribute to this discussion, you tell us what you think the biggest priority in trumpet playing is, and how it relates to the subject of Jerry Callet and Superchops.

    Oh yeah, I also want to know:

    1.) Can you consistently play (and I mean PLAY, in tune and with a clean, clear sound, not just "hit") DHC and higher with no endurance issues
    2.) If the answer to #1 is "yes" are you using an embouchure that is: a.) completely different than Superchops, b.) Very similar to Superchops.


    For me the number one priority is to make music through the trumpet.



    Next point. No two embouchures are alike. It's dangerous to look at pictures of players and say, "AHA" and formulate some system of embouchure from that. My favorite book is Chas Colin's "Chops" that has hundreds of pictures of embouchures in it. All different (Jerry's in there as well), since all facial, dental, bone, muscle structures and practice routines) are unique to that person.

    Instead of looking at a picture of Harry James and saying something about his embouchure that would tell you why he played the way he did, find out how Harry James practiced and studied and do that!

    If you want to be rich, find out what rich people do....AND DO THAT!

    If you want to be poor, find out what poor people do...and do that.

    If you want to be a fine trumpet player, find out what fine trumpet players do.....

    Patrick, I've explained what my point is in playing the trumpet. We all get something of what we dream of. If everyday your most burning desire is to play the double high register than that's what you will allways work towards. If everyday you wake up wanting to make the finest sound possible and learn how Ray Mase phrases, then you will work towards that end. It's a good idea once in a while for everyone to ask, "What's the point, what am I trying to accomplish?"

    If your most important goal is DHC and beyond, than go for it! If you believe Jerry is right on and that's how you want to sound, be my guest.

    For me it's about making music with the trumpet. It's very exciting to nail a lead part and get the audience fired up! That's a great time.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G
    Seems to me that, where the lip/mouthpiece interface is involved, the physics of the thing is in control. If I understand this correctly, the source of sound is a vibrating lip which produces harmonic waves [some anticipated and some not] which in turn are magnified [or not] by the horn. The ones the horns magnifies are the “notes” you play, the rest are “noise.” [or vice versa]

    As you move to higher and higher notes, the mass of the vibrating portion of the lip must be reduced or the velocity of air necessary must increase in order to over come the loss of energy resulting from the higher vibration frequencies [or both]. As I see it players generally resolve this by increasing lip pressure [either against the mouthpiece or just the lips themselves or a combination of both] which reduces the aperture in order to produce higher vibration frequencies while increasing air velocity. There are, of course, a number of other inputs to consider [somewhere else, thank you].

    Higher air velocity aids lip vibration. Smaller mouthpieces reduce length of vibrating lip. These are givens and must be dealt with as notes change also. But if, all other things remain the same, and you try to produce notes in the triple C range, the pressure holding the lips together approaches an approximate two hundred times the pressure needed to play a below the clef C. Lip pressure is only a partial answer here as is mouthpiece size. Same sort of result occurs with air velocity.

    Seems the goal is to figure out how to reduce vibrating lip mass, increase air velocity, and maintain a decent tone [overtones] while producing music. I guess my question [restated] is whether Jerome Callet has something to offer in my search for the ability to play a trumpet [as opposed to play with] through his approach to embouchure development?

    Just because he and/or his methods are different, has little or nothing to do with the value of his method to me.

    Consider Galileo who was opposed by all in his position that the earth was round.
    Consider the Wright brothers who were able to fly, notwithstanding the opposition.

    By the way, my favorite Einstien quote is: "Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy."


    Two things have to happen to play in the high register-

    1. The embouchure must have your lips in a position to vibrate fast and free.

    2. The fuel to the embouchure (air) must be energized (air velocity) to get the lips vibrating. Think of the lips as energy resisters.


    So the chops can vibrate, develop the embouchure muscles through isometric training. This allows you to use less pressure, the lips vibrate better, more freely. Make sure you have the highest lip efficiency. Mouthpiece placement over the pressure point, and be sure to place outside the red of the lip (inner and outer rim!). Pressure on the firmer stuff outside the red. To produce much faster vibrations you increase air velocity (not volume) and power. Do breathing exercises (that you Bobby Shew). Through the sound, make sure tongue position is correct. Do Flexibility exercises, pivot exercises, allow the tongue to find it's position for the upper register. The sound tells you when it's right. The aperture must become smaller for the high register. Flex and range studies making sure not to blast out the high notes so your aperture will learn how to get smaller. Forcing the high register frezzes the lip motionless, it can't change size. Do isometric exercises for more embouchure strength and aperture control. Make sure you are not in a more puckered position, or a more pinched position. Both "MM" in the lips and "OO" at the corners are needed to control aperture size and keep it's shape.


    The Double High range needs coordination, finese, skill. Not strength! This is an area for "Strength is my enemy, weekness is my friend."
    If you try playing in this range with more force you will fight the pipe. To play up there you are using more finese and control, and once you get it down you can usually do it all night becuase it's not such physical effort.


    Try it.

  6. #26
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    Instead of looking at a picture of Harry James and saying something about his embouchure that would tell you why he played the way he did, find out how Harry James practiced and studied and do that!
    Wouldn't both ways tell you the same thing? With one, you're starting with the end result and working toward the beginning. With the other, you're starting at the beginning and working your way to the end.

    It seems like there's a lot less room to mess up if you start at the end and work back.

    Not really sure how I play,
    Matt
    --Matt--

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    Quote Originally Posted by uatrmpt
    Instead of looking at a picture of Harry James and saying something about his embouchure that would tell you why he played the way he did, find out how Harry James practiced and studied and do that!
    Wouldn't both ways tell you the same thing? With one, you're starting with the end result and working toward the beginning. With the other, you're starting at the beginning and working your way to the end.

    It seems like there's a lot less room to mess up if you start at the end and work back.

    Not really sure how I play,
    Matt


    It's not possible to tell visually how a player has his embouchure set. You can tell more from listening, as a matter of fact you can tell most everything by listening. You might come to some conclusions about playing in the red, but because our face structure is so individual and so much is hidden under the rim as well as the air flow.....just looking at a player and coming to some determination is problematic. What you can do is listen carefully for the ease, resonance, centered sound, connection, pitch etc. and bring that to your approach. Even more important is to find out how a great player got that way. The endless hours of practice that Harry James put in, long hours playing the circus as a young virtuoso, his lessons with his father and Ernest Williams. If you think he was a great player (and he certainly was), go through the training he did in order to become the player you want to be.

    Find someone that plays the way you want to play, find out how they got their technique, then do that. You then begin to find out what works for you may be different from your model but it's a great place to start.

  8. #28
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    Dave,

    1. You still didn't answer my questions about YOUR embouchure.
    2. Even Jerry will tell you that no two embouchures are exactly alike

    However, I submit that people are going to be more similar than not and when you look at the embouchures of some of the great famous players, (Harry James, Al Hirt, Doc Severinsen, Maynard Ferguson, Arturo Sandoval, etc) again, you are going to find them to be more similar than not, and they are going to share traits that could be labeled as being Superchops traits because they all have balanced, efficient embouchures.

    Jerry's goal, as far as I know, has alway been to enable the player to be more free, expressive and musical in their playing. It would make sense that if you had an embouchure that was strong, balanced, and enabled you to play the entire range of the horn with ease and with good tone, then it would free you to be even more musical and more expressive.

    I'm trying to understand why you think this is a bad thing.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the two biggest limiting factors to most trumpet players range and endurance? I know guys that read really well. I know guys that have super technique as far as fingers and articulation are concerned. However, most of these guys are lacking in range and endurance and despite their sound and technique, it limits them to what they can play.

    Maybe you have a misconception that Superchops is all about playing scream trumpet.
    Patrick Gleason

    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"
    "At my signal, unleash hell."
    - Maximus Decimus Meridius

  9. #29
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    [quote="trickg"]Dave,

    1. You still didn't answer my questions about YOUR embouchure.

    Dave=Why is that so important to you? Is how high someone can play your measuring stick?



    2. Even Jerry will tell you that no two embouchures are exactly alike

    However, I submit that people are going to be more similar than not and when you look at the embouchures of some of the great famous players, (Harry James, Al Hirt, Doc Severinsen, Maynard Ferguson, Arturo Sandoval, etc) again, you are going to find them to be more similar than not, and they are going to share traits that could be labeled as being Superchops traits because they all have balanced, efficient embouchures.

    Dave=It's dangerous to study another player by looking at a picture or watching them play. You can't determine how a player has his/her embouchure set. Too much is hidden under the mouthpiece, and the air flow that powers the embouchure can't be seen. You can hear most everything, but looking is problematic. All the players you site look very different.



    Jerry's goal, as far as I know, has alway been to enable the player to be more free, expressive and musical in their playing. It would make sense that if you had an embouchure that was strong, balanced, and enabled you to play the entire range of the horn with ease and with good tone, then it would free you to be even more musical and more expressive.

    I'm trying to understand why you think this is a bad thing.

    Dave=As stated we agree. But hearing Jerry play tells me what I need to know about his approach. The tone is not what I'd like to play with.



    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the two biggest limiting factors to most trumpet players range and endurance?

    Dave=No. The biggest limiting factor for most players trying to be pros is their lack of musicianship. Why do you think Wayne Bergeron studied for so many years with Boyde Hood from the L.A. Phil? To become a fine all around player. Loads of cats in L.A. can peel paint all night long, but are not working due to musical limitations.



    I know guys that read really well. I know guys that have super technique as far as fingers and articulation are concerned. However, most of these guys are lacking in range and endurance and despite their sound and technique, it limits them to what they can play.

    Maybe you have a misconception that Superchops is all about playing scream trumpet.

    Dave=I've followed all of Jerry's approaches from Trumpet Yoga (several versions of that) to SuperChops and now TCE (does anybody really push their tongue into their lower lip and play gigs?). I heard him play in the late 60's, early 70's, ITG, various places. I've never heard him play anything else. Someone heard him play a melody once, but it was up around DHC.


    If you like his approach and enjoy playing that way, go for it!

    What's the argument about? Have fun with it.

  10. #30
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    Dave,

    Your embouchure isn't that important to me, but I think that you are merely dodging the question and it's inevitable answer - that you have what could be described as a Superchops embouchure, regardless of how you wish to think of it.

    Tell me, why is it dangerous to study another person by looking at a picture or watching them play? That's exactly what some Reinhardt method teachers do when trying to correct embouchure problems in their students. Besides, we are talking trumpet here, not nuclear physics. There is nothing dangerous about it.

    There are many methods for teaching embouchure out there. Some are better than others, but are there really any that are wrong?

    Jerry has been doing this for a long time and has done so with great success. His method does not work for everyone, but it has worked wonders for many. I personally know a guy who uses SC that is a fine player. Maybe Jerry has some playing issues, but Brian doesn't.

    When I made the comment that the two biggest limiting factors for trumpet players were range and endurance, I meant the two biggest limiting "chops" factors. Of course you have to be able to play musically, but I guarantee that if you walk into the studio for a session and you chop out before the session is out, or if you can't play the line because the line extends past your usable range, then you probably won't be working as a session musician for very long, regardless of how musical you can play.

    Chops have to come first. This isn't to say being musical is a side issue because it's not. It too is very important, but if musicianship was all that is needed, we can take any good singer and put them behind the horn because they ARE musical after all, right? However, they don't have chops. Without chops, you cannot play musically.
    Patrick Gleason

    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"
    "At my signal, unleash hell."
    - Maximus Decimus Meridius

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