Trumpet Discussion Discuss My Speakers Are Still Sizzling! in the General forums; Manny,
I listened to the Monette video last night. I loved the clips with you and Dave Bamonte! There was ...
Mezzo Piano User
My Speakers Are Still Sizzling!
I listened to the Monette video last night. I loved the clips with you and Dave Bamonte! There was a lot of sizzle coming through my speakers with the resultants that you were both producing. It was very reminiscent of your demonstration of resultants with Mike Thompson in Denver on Pictures, Beethoven 5, and Firebird.
It has been my experience that I will ring resultants of different magnitudes based on the person that I am playing with. When I sit beside someone that is more resonant than I am, the resultants ring out even stronger, while working with student players, resultants very often are faint if even apparent. With two players that have maximum vibrancy and resonance in their sounds, playing on similar equipment, with perfect intonation and the appropriate balance, the resultants can be almost too penetrating for some listeners (you and Mike made quite an impression on me in Denver).
Do you hear the resultants equally well when you are playing the top part? Or do you find if you switch parts, the resultants sound louder to you when you play the bottom part?
My instructor had a chance to play the Prana 3 (Wynton’s Bb) when Dave came to Arizona in January. He told me that it was the most amazing Bb trumpet he had ever experienced! How do you like the Prana 3 in C?
I wish I could have heard those video clips live (the recorder just didn’t do you and Dave justice)! You do good work!
The Prana 3 that I played was/is still a work in progress when I played it and Dave says he has more work to do on it. The R & D over there is ongoing. It was real sweet to play on but that's the way it is with Dave. He can always see the possibilities around the bend. That's why he keeps making them and I keep playing them!
Derek, Can you go into some more detail on these resultants? I had a tecaher that really stressed overtones and I think that's the same as what you are talking about. I've just never heard them called resultants.
Here's a cool little excersize we would do. He would have me play a strong middle C. And he would then play a E just above that. We would then hear a pedal C. So play the third and fourth overtones, with the third louder than the fourth, and then the fundamental will sound. Then he's bend his E around so that the fundamental would play mary had a little lamb. Crazy stuff. Really amazing.
It was a fascinateing excersize to me. I never thought overtones were actually under the notes being sounded. I always thought they were higer, i.e. OVERtones. I got together with three other guys and we tuned up a dominant 7 chord and even with each of us playing at a soft dynamic the fundamental sounded like a freight train coming through the room. It was the only time I've ever been able to create that. It definately took me a while to hear what my teacher was talking about, but once I caught on... WOW. Ihear that stuff all the time now. It's really amazing how much I was missing out on before.
Anyway, didn't mean to get off topic there but is that what you meant by resultants? Maybe Manny could post on this phenomenom. I guess from your post that he's done some clinics on this. It'd be great to get some more info.
Actually, I've never done a clinic on resultant tones. However, what I have done are many orchestral music and excerpt clinics that have used multiple horns by Dave. In that context, the discussion has always led to questions about the sheer force from the resultants produced by me and another Monette horn player (usually Dave Bamonte but in the ITG conference case it was Mike Thompson) while playing duo excerpts. People get a kick out of that and ask for certain licks from Alpine Symphony, Beethoven 5th, Firebird, and the like.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for the reply. Let me ask you this... I've noticed the resultant tones in both concert band and jazz band settings. However these seem to be more common in the concert band setting. Do you think this has to do with the quality of sound coming from a CB section VS a big band? If two players, say two guys that are lead players with bright sounds be able to get the same kind of resultants/overtones as say two classical guys with darker sounds? I guess will the darker sounding players get louder resultants than those with the bright sound? Thanks.
It has everything to do with the type of equipment that's being used, as you suggest.
Originally Posted by missednote
TYPICALLY, the usual big band sound is oriented towards the higher overtones while the more classical equipment captures more of the fundamental. The discussions I've seen about bright vs dark are usually so flawed because no one seems to agree on the terminology. Suffice it to say that agree very little with most people's descriptions of sound merely because the terminology doesn't work for me.
The more fundamental a given note has all by itself, the more you're going to hear resultant tones when you have a similar instrument playing along with it. People with instruments that are chock-full of lower partials (pending proper execution of solid brass playing) always complement a player playing above them in the section. That's why we teachers play second in duet sessions and the student sounds better: we know how to play in tune and we play better with more fundamental than the typical youngster.
So, here's the point: If a big band player or players are playing very light equipment for ease of play, they will not get as full a resultant tone than if you gave those same, good players appropriately larger mouthpieces and heavier instruments. Imagine two great studio players, with the lightest horns you're familiar with and two relatively shallow mouthpieces. Now they play a high C and the A just below at a normal forte level. Now, give those players moderately sized mouthpieces and a more conventional weight to heavier weight instruments. They play the same notes. You'll feel a bit more impact of the resultants because the equipment contains more fundamental before they even play a note.
Hope that helps,
Mezzo Piano User
I wrote about my experience from Manny's clinic in Denver in a post on TH called ITG Conference 2004 - Monette, Patrick, and Manny. When you read through that you will have a much better idea about the different combinations of resultants that are available from different intervals.
After you finish that set of posts, have a look at another one called 10 Question Music Quiz! Good Luck!. You can apply your new knowledge to answering these questions, and maybe learn something at the same time.
I hope this is what you were looking for.
Great points on the use of similar equipment and players who approach the horn in the same way to maximize the resultants. I had always believed that to be true, and hearing you in person just validated that concept in my mind. Your point about playing with students makes a lot of sense too. I find that when I play with high school students in church, it's much easier to have them play the tune and then I just "find them" with respect to intonation and it sounds great. When we swap parts it never seems to work as well.
Thanks for the input!
I read your link to the TH on the resultant pop quiz. Very intersting, especially after a few beers! But I definately get what you are talking about.
Have you considered the option of resultant notes coming from two out of tune notes?? See my post earlier about my teacher moving his E next to my C to make the resultant/overtone play 'mary had a little lamb'. At first I thought we were both in tune while he was making that resultant move. Eventually after a lot of explanation from him I realized I was wrong. Once I was able to hear resultant tones that was simply not enough. You can almost always hear those tones buzzing in your head if the intonation is close enough. You should also be able to tell where your voice is in the chord and also what is the resultant tone tha you should be hearing. Not to mention where your particualr note should be placed intonation-wise. I.E. the root, the 5th is a hair sharp (+2cents??)and the same dynamic as the root, but with just a hair more intensity(my teacher called it stank). The third should be -13cents and a dynamic lower than the root and the fifth. And then in a dom 7 chord the b7 sould be -27cents and the softest of all dynamically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I had these lessons and unfortunately I wrote nothing down and have no handouts. But I believe that's pretty close.
Even if the chords are out of tune I can still hear resultants. They might not be the right ones but I can still hear them. I don't have perfect pitch but I can usually tell when they're wrong. But when they are right.... WOW!!! Like I said earlier, it's like a freight train going through the room/my head. It's a great feeling.
To Manny and Derek,
I feel like you both have some great insights on this and I'd like to know your thoughts on tuning with an entire ensemble, not just like instruments. For instance, our core of sound as trumpet players is so much smaller than say a tubas..... So if a tuba is giving the starting pitch for an ensemble what part of a tubas pitch do you tune to? The high side?? Low side?? You can see where one trumpet tuning high VS another tuning low would cause problems right away within the section. Not to mention where the trombones might choose to tune VS the flutes. Flutes might think they're high so they move up, then the tubas move up to join them to compensate and the flutes go up again ...... It's endless. I actually heard it happen once where the whole ensemble kept going up and up through a concert. Granted this was a young group of player. But do You think each section has a tendency to tune to different tendicies, be it sharp or flat?? Thanks for any insight!!
Mezzo Piano User
I’m glad you enjoyed the quiz. It was something fun that I thought was worth putting together after my experience in Denver with Manny and Mike Thompson.
Getting back to your “Mary Had A Little Lamb” story, lets put a little theory behind it so you can see visually what is happening.
When you are playing the interval of a Major third (between 3rd space C and 4th space E) the resultant tone is two octaves below the bottom note of the interval or a Pedal C. In fact any time you play an interval that is separated by one partial, you will get the Pedal C. With this template you can see this to be true:
1) Pedal C
2) Low C
3) 2nd Line G
4) 3rd Space C
5) 4th Space E
6) Top of Staff G
7) Bb below High C
8) High C
9) D above High C
10) E above High C
4th space E (5) minus 3rd space C (4) equals Pedal C (1). 5 – 4 = 1. Try any of the partials in this way. Top of the Staff G (6) minus 4th space E (5) equals Pedal C (1). 6 – 5 = 1. It’s a neat trick to figure out what your ear is hearing.
Now, let’s see what happens when your instructor bent his 3rd space E down to an Eb. The interval between an Eb and a C is a minor third. The interval between the 6th partial and the 5th partial is a minor third in the key of Ab. So 6-5=1, except this time you are hearing the Pedal Ab.
The note that exists somewhere between the E and the Eb will generate a difference tone (resultant) that produces the Pedal Bb. So a movement of a half step on the top interval sets up the movement of a Major third in the resultants allowing Mary Had A Little Lamb to be heard to the discerning ear.
It sounds like you have a colorful, vibrant sound that is full of strong overtones. When you combine your sound with another player that shares these qualities you will hear the resultants very strongly. For players that are somewhat above the resonant center of the sound, the strength of the overtones is much less that what you are experiencing. These players may not experience the strong buzzing that you are hearing with your instructor.
You can almost always hear those tones buzzing in your head if the intonation is close enough.
As far as intonation and not getting the "handouts", you may enjoy reading a post that I wrote on TH called A440, Savings Bonds, and Symphony Trumpet Players. That will be something that you can print out and have for future reference when intonation conversations come up. It sounds like you really understand all of this even without reading what I have written though.
As far as the practical aspects of group intonation, there is a fantastic product that was developed by a horn player named Stephen Colley called TuneUp. I highly recommend it!
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