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| | #1 |
| Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden
Posts: 1,315
![]() ![]() | A question for rowuk Robin! After the thread "Hidden slot" another question has come to mind: We have learned that the mouthpiece end is the open end, and from the laws of standing waves in a tube this should mean that the wave pressure is low in a mouthpiece, since the wave pressure is low in an open end. (unless Iīve misunderstood, of course!). Some people, who usually know what they talk about, say otherwise, so my question is: * is wave pressure low as I expect in the mp end? * if not, then why not? The part of the mp that Iīm thinking of is the part immidiately in front of the lips. The fact that the pressure will vary with the size of the cross-section is not what Iīm after. Instead Iīm just asking whether the mp follows the same laws as any open end would do regarding pressure maxima/minima.
__________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and thatīs no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity Last edited by Sofus; 07-04-2009 at 05:02 PM. |
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| | #2 |
| Forte User | Re: A question for rowuk Hmmm... Me thinks we need NickD on this one!
__________________ The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts. -C. S. Lewis Life is about learning; when you stop learning, you die. -Tom Clancy And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. -Revelation 8:6 |
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| | #3 |
| Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Clarksburg, WV
Posts: 704
![]() ![]() | Re: A question for rowuk Hi sofus, I'm not rowuk but clarify if you would. Are you saying that a mouthpiece is an open ended device verses a close ended device? |
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| | #4 |
| Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden
Posts: 1,315
![]() ![]() | Re: A question for rowuk Yes! Surprising, but this was clarified by Robin in the thread "Hidden slot", found further down in this forum. I also would have guessed that the bell end was an open end and the mp end was a closed end, but the days of surprises are not yet over! I have even seen the opposite being stated by some professor in an article on internet!
__________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and thatīs no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity Last edited by Sofus; 07-04-2009 at 06:17 PM. |
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| | #5 |
| Pianissimo User | Re: A question for rowuk Even though this is pretty intriguing, what are you looking to gain by learning this? |
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| | #6 |
| Forte User Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,227
![]() | Re: A question for rowuk Yawn, .........Snore.........
__________________ (Above) Alexanders ragtime band-circa 1960 "Baby, I'm already the coolest, and the hippist, now you want me to be on time too?" Buddy Love "We appointed all our worst generals to command our armies, and our best generals to edit our newspapers." Robert E. Lee |
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| | #7 | ||
| Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden
Posts: 1,315
![]() ![]() | Re: A question for rowuk Quote:
to a mouthpiece, this has a lot to do with it, I should think. Quote:
Would you care to explain?
__________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and thatīs no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity Last edited by Sofus; 07-04-2009 at 08:10 PM. | ||
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| | #8 |
| Moderator Utimate User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany
Posts: 7,205
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: A question for rowuk Sofus, actually with a gedeckt/gedackt pipe, the high pressure is at the open end. Let me try and explain the trumpet better. The first mistake that most people make is that they think that a trumpet is like a horn speaker, the flare just being for amplification. This is not true. We blow air through our lips which makes them open and close like a switch (not vibrate like a reed - this is why the whole aperature argument is nonsense), a standing wave is set up in the horn and the wave reflection in the instrument makes our chops more or less vibrate at the tuning frequency of the horn. Some of the energy "escapes" from the instrument due to the impedance at the bell not being infinite. This is what the audience hears. If we want to visualize that standing wave principle, we blow across the top of a beer bottle. A note will come out which is based on the length of a straight pipe or the volume of an irregular shaped object. The note is a standing wave in the bottle. The highest pressure is where we blow into the bottle. In the case of the trumpet, the sound that "escapes" IS amplified by the bell and the soundwave at the bell is low velocity, high impedance. If we didn't have that standing wave and the horn "just" amplified, the input would be high velocity, low impedance and at the bell low velocity, high impedance. Then the trumpet would sound dramatically different for each player as we would only hear the amplified lip-flapping instead of the leaky standing wave. If you want to try some of this stuff, glue a small speaker element (like from headphones) to a mouthpiece. Then run a sweeping sine wave and measure the output at the bell. It will sound NOTHING like a trumpet, but you will be able to see what the system does to that waveform and what resonances are present.
__________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again. Last edited by rowuk; 07-04-2009 at 07:45 PM. |
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| | #9 |
| Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden
Posts: 1,315
![]() ![]() | Re: A question for rowuk Great! As usual you have once again clarified things, Robin! Thank you!
__________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and thatīs no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity |
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| | #10 | |
| Forte User | Re: A question for rowuk Quote:
lol, Tim
__________________ The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts. -C. S. Lewis Life is about learning; when you stop learning, you die. -Tom Clancy And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. -Revelation 8:6 | |
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