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Trumpet Discussion Discuss Salt and Hydration in the General forums; Hi robrtx, You stated: "I read the linked article about French horn players awhile back and found it very interesting ...
  1. #11
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    Hi robrtx,
    You stated:
    "I read the linked article about French horn players awhile back and found it very interesting re lip swelling from certain meds, salts, supplements. Interesting that some players had found that taking Ibuprofin (Nsaid) before playing was helpful."
    --
    Oy! If a person's (for example) hands are stiff due to disease, old age or most commonly, both, then an OTC such as ibuprofen can be handy. However, I think most (if not all) would agree that the need for a medicine to perform at one's optimum level when it's not needed is a sad state. However, if you want to enhance performance, I have the recipe.
    Find a hot looking audience member and play to them. That will enhance playing more than a whole bottle of Advil "and" you might just get lucky! It's tough to argue with lucky.
    Dr.Mark
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  2. #12
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    This is actually backwards from what I teach. If the body is not decently hydrated, the lips/muscles are not as supple, we have to work harder for the same output. If we munch a whole bag of chips in the evening, our playing the next morning is affected. A decent fluid management for the body does help us to play more consistently. It is not an argument that normal playing dehydrates. It is the context of fluid management also needing to include sodium factors.

    As far as dehydration goes, when I play a world championship dancing competition, I lose about 3 pounds in the course of the evening-in spite of eating and drinking. It CAN only be dehydration!


    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpetMD View Post
    Great question. I agree that this has come up a few times on TM -- the belief that there's a correlation between hydration and optimal embouchure function.

    As a physician, I don't believe this is true. From a physiological standpoint, it's unlikely that playing the trumpet will cause any significant dehydration. Although it's possible, especially during a tough gig, under bright lights, etc. In addition, if someone was clinically dehydrated, it's unlikely that any water will re-hydrate their lips in an appreciable way (at least not in the short term).

    In fact, the opposite is might actually be true. Your lips likely have more intravascular and intersitial fluid in them simply through the act of playing the trumpet. So even if someone was dehydrated from playing the trumpet, their lips would likely not be.

    Of course, if you find a benefit from drinking water while playing, I'd continue to do it. Extra fluid can help your body expel waste products from muscle activity. And there are likely other benefits with respect to overall health and maintaining stamina during a gig. But drinking water to re-hydrate your chops may not be one of them.

    I'm open to correction on this. Where's Dr. Gary and Dr. Mark?

    Mike
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  3. #13
    Utimate User gmonady's Avatar
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpetMD View Post
    Great question. I agree that this has come up a few times on TM -- the belief that there's a correlation between hydration and optimal embouchure function.

    As a physician, I don't believe this is true. From a physiological standpoint, it's unlikely that playing the trumpet will cause any significant dehydration.
    I'm open to correction on this. Where's Dr. Gary and Dr. Mark?

    Mike
    I concede with my esteemed colleague. There is Excellent evidence that the physical finding (or lack there of) of the oral mucousa (dry lips) is a poor indicator of hydration status. More important however would be the local environment that effects the lips such as that of convection or wind effects. That can chap and "dry" the lip surface without impacting the overall hydration status of the tissue that lye beneath. The specific cause would dictate how one would prevent to perception of dye lips. Using chap stick which provides a protective lipid barrier is one method. I do not prefer this method however, as I do not like the oily feeling that is left in its wake. I prefer rather the normal physiological function of our tongue frequently licking our lips. That is one of the physiological functions of the tongue is to keep the lips moist (note not hydrated). Albeit having a lovely lady do the licking I would prefer even more, assuming they are not wearing lip stick at the time.
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  4. #14
    Utimate User gmonady's Avatar
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    ...As far as dehydration goes, when I play a world championship dancing competition, I lose about 3 pounds in the course of the evening-in spite of eating and drinking. It CAN only be dehydration!
    Now this seriously fits the medical definition of dehydration. I think that us in the medical field take the meaning of dehydration differently than the lay public. So I don't think my above post supporting TrumpetMD's statement contradicts what Rowuk also states above. I do agree that keeping the lips moist is important. But even after eating a bag of chips, it is immediately up to our tongue to ride the surface of excess salt. If this is not done than locally (at the surface of the lips) the surface will dry, no doubt. It's just that as a physician, we cannot call this dehydration, but rather would call it not using our head (or specifically our tongue).
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  5. #15
    Utimate User gmonady's Avatar
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    Quote Originally Posted by robrtx View Post
    I read the linked article about French horn players awhile back and found it very interesting re lip swelling from certain meds, salts, supplements. Interesting that some players had found that taking Ibuprofin (Nsaid) before playing was helpful.

    I'd be interested in what our Docs would have to comment on this........

    The Balanced Embouchure for Horn: Lip Swelling, The Embouchure Performance Wrecking Ball
    This situation does not apply to the discussion of dehydration or dry lip surface. This applies more to a deeper reaction to lip tissue, and less with surface issues. In these situations I am more in favor of lip massage and use of cold (ice used against the mucosal surface (not skin) of the lip over NSAIDS. I would argue that NSAIDS have no use in these situations.
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  6. #16
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    This is actually backwards from what I teach.
    Quote Originally Posted by gmonady View Post
    So I don't think my above post supporting TrumpetMD's statement contradicts what Rowuk also states above.
    There's really 2 things here.

    • The first is whether being dehydrated can affect your ability to play the trumpet. My reply had nothing to do with that statement.
    • The second is whether playing the trumpet can dehydrate your embouchure. This is what I was responding to. And to this I say the answer is "no".

    This is why Gary keenly pointed out that my statement did not contradict Rowuk's statement. We are talking about 2 different things.

    I also agree with Gary's comments on Rowuk's "potato chip" analogy and the "dancing all night" analogy.

    Now, where did I put those Pringles?

    Mike
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  7. #17
    Fortissimo User TrumpetMD's Avatar
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    I think part of the confusion with my initial reply is that I misunderstood the OP's original question. I thought he was asking about embouchure dehydration. Instead, I think he was asking a more general question about dehydration. I tried to clarify this difference in my second reply.

    Mike
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  8. #18
    Utimate User gmonady's Avatar
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpetMD View Post
    Now, where did I put those Pringles?

    Mike
    Not to worry Mike, I found them.... AND washed them down with a tall Seasonal Sam Adams to assure I would not get dehydrated...
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  9. #19
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    I am glad that we are all in agreement! I think it was actually another post of mine that Seth was referring to in the title post in this thread

    Now comes a typical ROWUK:

    we need to achieve STABILITY to play consistently. This means that eating habits, drinking habits, exercize and practice all become part of the big picture. If our life is erratic, we can draw on reserves only so long before it takes its toll. Playing better means decent energy management, fluid management, sleep management.

    If we have an important gig (audition, concert, ....) in a couple of days, stable behaviour is critical to supporting the activity. If we are serious about anything in life, we have to look at the big picture. Hydration and sodium have effects far beyond our playing........
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  10. #20
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    Re: Salt and Hydration

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    I am glad that we are all in agreement! I think it was actually another post of mine that Seth was referring to in the title post in this thread

    Now comes a typical ROWUK:

    we need to achieve STABILITY to play consistently. This means that eating habits, drinking habits, exercize and practice all become part of the big picture. If our life is erratic, we can draw on reserves only so long before it takes its toll. Playing better means decent energy management, fluid management, sleep management.

    If we have an important gig (audition, concert, ....) in a couple of days, stable behaviour is critical to supporting the activity. If we are serious about anything in life, we have to look at the big picture. Hydration and sodium have effects far beyond our playing........
    I doubt you could find much stability in Miles' life. I think "erratic lifestyle" was his middle name.

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