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Trumpet Discussion Discuss Stolen Instruments in the General forums; Hello TM Members. The whole afternoon I devoted my time into doing a quick wordpress website for reporting Stolen Instruments. ...
  1. #1
    Fortissimo User BrassBandMajor's Avatar
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    Stolen Instruments

    Hello TM Members.

    The whole afternoon I devoted my time into doing a quick wordpress website for reporting Stolen Instruments.
    I also made a Google Documents Form to fill in. (Please comment below for any more improvements)

    https://stolentrumpets.wordpress.com/

    Please instead of making new threads, lets try to post new ones here or PM me. From there, I will post it on the wordpress website.

    Lets work together and help the poor trumpeters out there.

    Best wishes,

    BBM
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  2. #2
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    No disclaimers. What do you do if you are scammed? Let say that a couple wants to get divorced and the husband lists the wifes horn as stolen - he says that it is his. Your site lists it as stolen, someone sees it and reports it. You are now part of a big mess.

    What about someone taking your picture and advertising a stolen horn on Ebay? Taking Dales eye candy photo and registering the horn as stolen.

    What about a horn that was found but not reported back to the website?

    There are real life issues to consider here, not just opening up another site with questionable data.

    The game plan for a site like this must be keeping the content valid and current
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  3. #3
    Piano User Satchmo Brecker's Avatar
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    Seriously dude, BrassBandMajor, I post something looking for feedback for a serious site and you create some piece of crap wordpress site. Not cool. The problem I'm trying to solve is that there are a zillion crap sites like yours that are worthless. I want to engage musicians to get some real feedback so I can possibly create something of actual value. Geesh.
    rowuk likes this.
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  4. #4
    Fortissimo User BrassBandMajor's Avatar
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    I've deleted the website.

    Thanks for the un-required comment of yours, Satchmo. I think a PM and 4 comments against my website has been enough to prove that it was completely stupid. Thanks for saying it was crap, I thought it was pretty crappy and worthless compared to my other websites.
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  5. #5
    Fortissimo User trumpetnick's Avatar
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    No disclaimers. What do you do if you are scammed? Let say that a couple wants to get divorced and the husband lists the wifes horn as stolen - he says that it is his. Your site lists it as stolen, someone sees it and reports it. You are now part of a big mess.

    What about someone taking your picture and advertising a stolen horn on Ebay? Taking Dales eye candy photo and registering the horn as stolen.

    What about a horn that was found but not reported back to the website?

    There are real life issues to consider here, not just opening up another site with questionable data.

    The game plan for a site like this must be keeping the content valid and current
    These are some real and valid questions, and it is not easy to give valid answers to them. Again, once found who will take care to delete or update the info? (I didn't get to see the website though). There are many other questions that need to be dealt with...not an easy job, for sure.
    BrassBandMajor likes this.

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  6. #6
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    Satchmo I understand your feelings and right or wrong they are honest, but BrassBandMajor got off his butt and tried to help and thats more than I see anyone else doing. Maybe it was a hasty effort but the intentions were good. BBM cudos to you for actually doing something.

    Lets hope that we can find a solution that works and can be a way forward I know there are a lot of guys who do want this theft situation resolved in some way and I am one of them.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    I do think the basic premise that a stolen instrument would have to be registered in some way after it is stolen rather than trying to register all instruments that exist, is the correct way.

    Rowuks point about false declarations is valid but this happens with insurance claims on a daily basis anyway so I think it has to be accepted that this will happen, and let others decide on the honesty or otherwise of the claimant.

    I do think that one single database that is an industry standard official listing approved by the legal profession police and insurance companies and updated when thefts occur is the only real way forward, but I have to admit lack of knowledge in this area.

    I think getting a listing approved as the only single accepted official listing has to be the right action. What other views do members have.
    If you can play Jazz you can Razzamatazz, But if you can play sweet you can always eat.

    Conn 80A Cornet May 1952
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    Comet Pea shooter Trumpet Unknown build date probably 1950

  8. #8
    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    Let us try and think this through.

    1) Who are the stakeholders? Musicians, insurance companies, police, collectors, potential customers, ???
    2) What data is important? The make, year, condition, serial number (if available), any special information. Then there is the personal data: names, addresses, Telephone numbers, value of the instrument, etc.
    3) Who has access?
    4) What levels of visability should users have? Should police and insurance companies see more?
    5) Who monitors the data and insures that it is current and correct?
    6) In case of litigation, what court is responsible?
    7) Are there any financial interests in the data?
    8) What are the costs of maintaining the site (not just monetary)
    9) Could someone or some institution have a problem with such a site existing?
    10) Who guarantees that there will be no misuse of the information, what procedures are in place to make the data secure and not hackable
    11) If the police and the insurance companies are involved, there is the question of interfaces. Will they even provide information? Is the insured owner allowed to publish details?

    I am sure that there are hundreds of other details to be considered. BBM entered someone elses data in his now deleted site. Is that a problem? Don't just think about your own country. There are others, with other laws! Errors in process can make an insurance policy void.

    What else do we need?
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  9. #9
    Piano User OldSchoolEuph's Avatar
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    Unfortunately, it's just not a simple thing. There are a lot of potential legal issues (with legit use even, not just malicious misuse), and it's a global legal mine field. If misused, the potential liability (defamation, harassment, disruption of business, loss of income, interfering with law enforcement) for both webmaster and web host alone pretty much makes it too risky to take on.

    Let's face it, having a horn stolen sucks (yeah, happens to me too). Unfortunately, it is up to the victim, or maybe a very unusual detective or insurer, to do the work of finding it. It will only be findable some situations that horns are stolen for, which are:
    1- another player steals it to use, in which case it won't be found unless the victim and thief come face to face at a gig.
    2- it was stolen for scrap brass weight, in which case it is gone (this happens a lot, at least where I am)
    3- it was stolen to sell, in which case the victim can monitor EBay and local Craig's List and often recover it.

    It would be many years before a horn would make it to anyone who might check a registry such as a storefront, unless one assumes EBay bidders will (not happening), so really, the victim is doubly -----'d by being saddled with the work of trying to recover.

    It sucks, but it is what it is.
    rowuk likes this.
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  10. #10
    Forte User LaTrompeta's Avatar
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    Re: Stolen Instruments

    I build websites for a living, and I wouldn't touch this issue. Our society is obsessed with litigation. This seems like a glutton for abuse. If you had an instrument stolen, let that be your lesson. A "stupid tax", if you will, to teach you not to make the same mistake twice.
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