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Trumpet Discussion Discuss Type IV upstreamplayers. in the General forums; Originally Posted by tobylou8 Hmm. I play 1/3 top 2/3 bottom and blow downstream. So what is that? According to ...
  1. #51
    New Friend
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    Jul 2011
    Asheville, NC

    Re: Type IV upstreamplayers.

    Quote Originally Posted by tobylou8 View Post
    Hmm. I play 1/3 top 2/3 bottom and blow downstream. So what is that? According to that info I would have to be upstream. I also have an overbite that isn't severe but is there. I've read through the Reinhardt material before and it is interesting. I've tried to blow upstream and it isn't comfortable at all.
    I'd have to watch you play to be certain, because certain factors like lip texture can surprise you, but with the mouthpiece placement you describe it's a good chance that you are already blowing upstream, no need to try to do anything different. It's not trying to blow upstream that makes it so, it's the placement of more lower lip inside that makes it so. When I free buzz I buzz downstream, but when the mouthpiece gets placed on my lips the predominance of the lower lip makes the lips into an upstream one.

    I do agree that you can switch back and forth but for me, upstream is nasally, pinched and whiny sounding.
    Some players switch back and forth, but this isn't advisable. Here is a link to a resource that shows a case study of what this looks like and the sort of problems it can cause. Again, I'd have to see exactly what you're doing, but I suspect that when you're trying to switch between upstream and downstream you're really doing something that doesn't really reflect this difference. And remember, what works best for you depends on your anatomy, not who you're trying to play like or what mouthpiece you're playing on.

    IMHO, the best is to stop thinking and analyze too much : just put the mouthpiece on the lips and let nature take its course. And play !
    This is, probably, the predominant way of teaching embouchure to brass students. In my humble opinion, it's better to be informed about the different embouchure types (more than simply upstream/downstream), how they differ from each other, and what sort of instructions and practice methods are best suited for most players of each type.

    I was introduced to the system by accident when I was looking at a weird mpc on e-Bay that said it was a"pivot" mpc.
    It was probably just one of Donald Reinhardt's mouthpiece designs. There's nothing inherently special about them that makes one "pivot." Most people don't understand what Reinhardt meant by pivot anyway (he didn't mean tilting the horn). Here is a resource that describes what he meant.

    I think "paralysis through analysis" is a definite possibility here
    Paralysis by analysis means either you don't know how to analyze what you're doing now and what you should be doing (so it screws you up) or you're trying to analyze when you should be making music. This is why we have teachers, to help us with the analysis. Listen to what the best teachers do, not what they say, and you'll note that they frequently do the analysis for the student while telling the student to not analyze. If you want to teach or want to offer advice, spreading the "paralysis by analysis" myth is missing the point.

    I wonder if Arturo studied this while being raised in Cuba?
    Arturo, by they way, fits within Reinhardt's Type IIIA embouchure type. All players have an embouchure type (or types, if they switch between more than one). It's not a system that you choose to fit inside, it's a way of classifying basic embouchure patterns that simply are. Again, the point of doing this sort of analysis is to know that if you properly should be playing with the same embouchure type that the way you should play would resemble that of another (all players have differences, though). If you're not already experienced with this you should get the help from someone who is, otherwise you're probably better off just playing and not worrying about it. If you mistype yourself you could end up trying to play exactly opposite of the way you should be playing.

    tobylou8 likes this.

  2. #52
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    Jul 2011

    Re: Type IV upstreamplayers.

    Dave's done a lot of hard work over the years teaching the Reinhardt system. Which does and will work for everyone.

    That said by Reinhardt's own words and writing it is an extremely confusing system. I've been acquainted with the program for some forty years now and have at least a couple working pros who teach or promote the Reinhardt system of whom I consider good friends. Privately each will at least disagree with Reinhardt on various matters.

    Plus Reinhardt missed some very important physics. He completely blew the tongue arch fallacy and a sketch of a human head doing the tongue arch "Tuu Eee" appears in a prominent place the Reinhardt system in the Encyclopedia. This was a mistake. Not a huge one but he should have known better.

    The buzzing exercises are good. I can't remember if Reinhardt emphasized avoidance of over training though. He probably mentioned it but I don't recollect that he really pushed the avoidance of it to the extent that it is necessary for most dedicated trumpet players. My guess is that he probably talked about it in lessons.

    There isn't a whole lot of info about mouthpiece choices in the Pivot System Encyclopedia. Since proper mouthpiece selection is a basic consideration in modern lead trumpet playing we must consider this omission a serious deficiency to his program. Reinhardt himself was a trombone player and as such the demands both physically and on the adequate personal specifications of a mouthpiece aren't all that critical.

    And part of the problem is that the system is dated. Much has been learned since Doctor Reinhardt passed away long ago.

    But he led the way. Pointed the right direction better than his peers who all had horrendous failure rates. The answers to inefficient trumpet playing are physical. These answers can be found in identifying the correct physics. We can thank Reinhardt for pushing us in that direction
    Last edited by Local 357; 08-23-2012 at 01:18 PM.
    tobylou8 likes this.

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