Calliope

Hi Manny-

Do you have any suggestions for cleaning up multiple tonguing in the upper register? I have problems doing it with a good sound. I find that instead it sounds brittle and forced, whereas the rest of my playing can stay open and relaxed. I'd appreciate any input you may have for me and others in a similar situation.

Thanks,
LJJ

Bear

LJ, I know Manny will have his own opinion but I think you just answered your own problem. You say your lower registers sound clear and RELAXED but the upper sounds FORCED. Do some studies (Clarke, Arban, etc) that transcinds both reigsters or rides the line between the two and try to get that clear, focused, RELAXED sound in the higher register. Instead of multiple tounging though, I'd just work on the sound concept. Then after you have your "sound" you can start with the tounging up there. just my 2 cents.

Manny Laureano

Calliope,

The reason people have trouble with this, all things being equal, is twofold:

1) There are subtle but significant changes that occur in the corners that make double tonguing sound worse in the upper register if you're not vigilant. Keep those corners from curling up and away and the sound won't change. It's hard work, though, I gotta tell ya.
2) It's not something people practice until they need it and that's the biggest problem. They don't like practicing it because it's a pain in the neck, like keeping piccolo chops up when it's not the main thing you do. But you have to do it!

So, lot's of TOO-KOO up there (no tee-kee) and do it often.

ML

John Mohan

I found that when I learned to tongue in the manner that Herbert L. Clarke and later, Claude Gordon tongued, my upper register multiple tonguing cleaned up right away.

This method of tonguing is what Claude Gordon referred to as "KTM" ("K-Tongue Modified"). It is described in the opening text pages of Herbert L. Clarke's "Characteristic Studies" book, and also described in two of Gordon's books - "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing" and "Tongue Level Exercises".

From "Characteristic Studies for the Cornet":

There are also several excellent descriptions of this method of tonguing available on the Internet:

http://mattgraves.netfirms.com/k_tongue_modified.htm

http://www.trumpetguild.org//itgyout...ass/Purtle.htm

From the Q&A section on Jeff Purtle's Site:

Once the player has learned to tongue using the KTM method (if he doesn't already tongue this way naturally), he or she will find that also changing the multiple tonguing (Triple and Double Tonguing) to this method will allow for a faster, cleaner articulation, and in particular, the ability to multiple tongue right to the top of the range will be facilitated.

Hope this is helpful to you.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

Manny Laureano

Yeah, right. Good grief, John... do you always make statements without doing homework first? There are a variety of ways of articulating in all registers that work equally well. Clarke's works fine and dandy as do other methods. " Never experience accuracy, tonguing speed..." What nonsense.

And by the way, Doc does NOT tongue that way. I've actually played with the guy and we've had plenty of conversations about articulation and I know for a FACT that he doesn't use this method exclusively if at all.

Sigh...

ML

John Mohan

Hi Manny,

I didn't write that. I was quoting what Jeff Purtle wrote in one of his articles.

I do agree with you that that particular sentence is a bit absolute. But I also agree with Jeff that the method of tonguing advocated by Herbert L. Clarke is the best for most players. Changing my own tonguing to the KTM way helped my playing tremendously.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

Manny Laureano

Then why bother quoting him without disclaiming it? Can you honestly not see that in that particular context it's a way of tacitly agreeing with it or at the very least advocating the same position? What else is one to assume?

This forum is not the place for absolute statements that don't have the benefit of evidence to back them up without disclaimer. Anything else is merely speculation or opinion. Purtle's statement is pure opinion.

You want to continue promoting those ideas, fine. Start up a thread in General, The Lounge, Steel Cage... you can be as absolute as you want or not.

ML

Calliope

Thank you Manny, for putting a kabosh on the absolute statements posted earlier! I was quite skeptical of John Mohan's quote myself, when he claimed that Armando Ghitalla tongued in the KTM method. He didn't advocate this method of tonguing when I took lessons from him!

I'll just continue my quest for more relaxation with my upper register double tonguing...

LJJ

Bear

Hey LJ,
Something else I was thinkin' about today after warmin' up and all. Why don't ya try different syllables for tounging up there? I've been playing around with it and have found that I personally do switch syllables when I'm hanging around in the altissimo or down below the staff... Just a thought. Try stuff like, too-koo, da-gaa, etc. Open and relaxed... I'm sure Manny or Wilmer or the hundreds of other people on here can explain it in better terms if I'm not making any sense...

Bear

Hmm... hint taken Manny... back to the picc... But I've always thought, "Why play the picc when I can play the same notes on the Bb?"

Yes, I'm joking. lol.