DanZ_FL

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone had a chance to enjoy this latest complete release of the Brandenburgs. It is in SACD format and I am really digging this both authentic and high-fidelity new release!

David Blackadder, in my opinion, hits this one out of the park with a effortless and expressionful performance on natural trumpet.

What a joy. The two SACD set does retail at around $40, but if you love the Brandenburgs -- not just ours, the 2nd, -- I think you'll love this latest release.

BACH (J.S.). Brandenburg Concertos

rowuk

Yeah, it's another one for the pile.
Great playing, no "new" musical revelations. Great sonics.
A= 392 means that it is about one whole step down from A=440. That puts it in modern Eb instead of F.

What is significant here is the fact that Bach organs as far as I have been able to tell, were pitched MUCH higher - around A=480. This is a half tone HIGHER than our current concert pitch.

What I am trying to say is that there is little historical reference for Bach being played at this low pitch. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_(music))

I am sure the trumpet player here would have been up to the task though!

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Dr. Zink

It's about time somebody recorded it at that pitch! - the most appropriate pitch for these concerti in my opinion.

Church organs, by and large yes, (though there are plenty of exceptions) but court musical establishments no. I suggest you research the influences of French performance practices on German courts in the early 18th century.

I dare say you are in the minority opinion. Do look into the french influence on German Courts, I'm sure you'll find it enlightening.

Dr.Z

ecarroll

Robin,

As I'm sure you know, baroque chamber pitch (.50 step down from modern) is A = 415

Best,
EC

DanZ_FL

I just watched the interview video under the "videos" section of my above link.

Particularly, at about the middle of the interview he addresses the pitch issue and points out that, while baroque chamber pitch is indeed A=415, the instruments at the time of the composition of the Brandenburgs match the lower A=392 pitch. Dr.Z, he does mention this as French Baroque pitch -- thanks for your insight.

This section also features #2 and some video of David Blackadder performing.

Dr. Zink

Indeed, thank you. I appreciate being appreciated.

The French influence during the early 18th century is, in my opinion, too often overlooked or neglected in studying the developement of Baroque musical style, and performance practices in particular. It was far more than merely the French overture and double-dotting. Among the many elements we associate with baroque performance practice we have the french to thank (or damn depending on how you feel about it) for the upper-neighbor trill. But I digress....

Dr.Z

rowuk

Not to put down the "French" influence, but the scholastic world (at least here in Germany where I enjoy decent connections) is not so bold as to make statements like that.

Riemann and Mendel (among others) document the chamber pitch to be a whole tone higher during Bachs time and in fact, there are enough old instruments in museums here that are pitched in modern E, Eb, D and Db.

Yes Ed, I am aware of the common practice of A=415. My research shows that tuning was all over the map back then and that there are enough instruments that are A=465 to support the theory that a blanket low pitch, however convenient was not prevalent back then.

That does not belong in this thread about such a wonderful performance though!

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Dr. Zink

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowuk That does not belong in this thread about such a wonderful performance though!

Indeed, quite to the contrary! This is the perfect place for such a discussion. This recording, wonderful as it is, is very innovative in its use of so-called French pitch which, as the director discusses in his commentary, is a key element (no pun intended) of the performance. As such, discussion and debate on the topic is entirely warranted and appropriate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowuk Not to put down the "French" influence, but the scholastic world (at least here in Germany where I enjoy decent connections) is not so bold as to make statements like that.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this, but I stand by my earlier statement. Not to digress too much but the trend toward French fashion was evident even as early as the middle of the seventeenth century, when the German satirist and moralist Johann Michael Moscherosch (1601-1669) complained in his Gesichter Philanders von Sittewald about the “neusüchtige Teitschlinge—the novelty seeking Germans—that if one could flap open their hearts, ‘one would find five eights apparently French, one eighth Spanish, one eighth Italian, and the other eighth hardly German.’” Daniel Speer, felt the deep and far reaching effects of the increasing “Frenchification” of Germany more as retribution. In 1688 he wrote “as nothing happens arbitrarily or without God’s direction, so all these French procedures may be a rod and scourge for Germany because our sins against God for indulging in French glamour, garb, and other sinful hankerings for the things of that nation. Therefore as long as God wills, we must be scourged by them, but, let it be hoped, for our improvement.” [Moser, Heinrich Schütz, 228-29.] Nowhere in German society was this French influence (particularly that of French court culture) seen more so than in the German courts (mostly because they could afford to indulge in the latest styles) during the early 18th century.

As I’m sure you know, the Brandenburg concerti were written while Bach was at court at Cöthen, and as current thought presumes, they reflected the resources and practices available there. As they were intend for and dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg it may also be presumed that they took into account the availability of similar resources and practices. Thus it’s not unreasonable to think that the “tiefe-Cammerton” (what we refer to as French pitch), of A=ca398, used at Cöthen, would be particularly appropriate. I’m just surprised that it has been done before. I’m not sure what your line of thinking is regarding A=465. What you don’t seem to be aware of is that by the 18th century pitch level designations had switched: Chorton (A=ca465) was the higher pitch and Cammerton the lower (A=ca415), with about a whole step separating them – see the Grove article on this, it’s quite good) German church organs were usually at Chorton and strings and woodwinds were usually tuned at Cammerton, which is why in Bach scores the trumpets and continuo are notated in C and the woodwinds and strings are in D. Chortone and Cammertone often varied considerably from place to place and occasionally went much farther afield than merely a half step above or below today’s nominal pitch, so for practical purposes, modern early music practitioners have- latched on to A=415 for Baroque music, more rarely A=465 (mostly for renaissance and early 17thc. music), and similarly rare A=398 for French music (Gamba and lute players especially seem to like this pitch). And of course most practical of all A=440 (mostly by cornet players who don’t have an A=465 instrument and sackbut players who aren’t versatile in A=first position) which has historical justification in Italy and England. Most recently, some cornet players have even ventured into the realm of A=490! And, of course, A=430 for Classical music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowuk Riemann and Mendel (among others) document the chamber pitch to be a whole tone higher during Bachs time and in fact, there are enough old instruments in museums here that are pitched in modern E, Eb, D and Db.

Be careful making generalizations about pitches based on extant trumpets. Just because the nominal pitch of an instruments corpus is at a given pitch level doesn’t mean it was intended to be played at that pitch. You must consider extraneous tuning bits and crooks - afterall, do you play with your tuning slide all the way in? Moreover what was the sounding pitch considered? Ie, was the fundamental/8th partial considered – C, D, or …? Woodwinds are a much better barometer, as their acoutrements (usually missing like brass crooks) are less likely to vary their intended pitch level as significant as a half step (note flutes with corps de rechange [basically interchangeable sections] intended to play at different pitch levels), and their fingering patterns were standardized as to specifically what pitch they represented.

Sorry to pontificate so much, but performance practice is very near and dear to my heart, and there is just too much misinformation and misunderstanding out there that keeps getting perpetuated. Please take no offense.

All the best,

Dr.Z

rowuk

I have no trouble at all with qualified arguments. This is also near and dear to my heart. I just have not found the real "meat" - only educated guesses by scholastics with an agenda. I know that you are very well versed in this and enjoy your style.

I will continue to dig. I am aware of the Kammer- and Chorton. I have performed in many of the churches here where even the intonation of the organ (this is not only the "high" pitch, but the relationship of the tones to one another as well as the "voicing") is protected by law. Playing the Telemann Concerto in Eb (on the nat) is great fun............

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GordonH

Where does temperament fit into the pitch issue?
Were they playing in equal or natural temperament at that time on the trumpet or keyboard?
I am never sure.

This reminds me of the time I arrived for a concert to find a harpsichord had been delivered tuned to A=415. The tuner arrived but he refused to pull it up to A=440 in case the frame cracked. Myself and the other trumpet player had to tune down on piccolo trumpet and the overall intonation was all over the place.

And another anecdote: my 1887 cornet was high pitch converted to low pitch at some point in its life. When I had it restored it was way too low in pitch on a modern mouthpiece so in the end nearly all the additional bits of slide had to be removed to make it a playable instrument at A=440. The original mouthpiece was really tiny with a very tight backbore.

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