GordonH

This follow in from the thread about the Haydn.

Generally speaking , earlier recordings of all the Bach repertoir tends to be slower than now. If you listen to the Karl Munchinger recordings from the 50's all of the Brandenburgs seem very slow and stodgy compared to the way we do them now. This is probably due to the rediscovery of original instruments helping us to understand ho these pieces would have sounded originally.

So what speed is the right speed?

Also, the hot potato, is it a trumpet part?
I would always have said yes until I heard a CD of it with the trumpet part played down an octave. I always assumed it was because the trumpet player in question couldn't play it up the octave, but I have since found out that he can and he has recorded it twice up the octave with other orchestras on other record lables so it must have been a conductors choice.

It actually sounded fine down the octave (he was playing on a rotary so it was quite lyrical).

GordonH

I just had a listen to that CD on my new speakers and I don't think its a rotary trumpet.
Anyone got any ideas?
It sounds a bit horn like, could even be some sort of natural trumpet.
The player credited is known as a trumpet player and credited trumpet though.


http://www.hudson.nu/trumpet/clips/brandenburg.mp3

trumpetnick

It may be a rotary, it is not a nat for sure. Probably it is low/bass trumpet in f. At least it sounds to me like that.

GordonH

Thats a sensible suggestion.

ecarroll

Gordon,

It's a cono di caccia. Mine is (was -- I sold it to Mike Tunnell) made by Thein and they're really fun little horns. Ludwig Guttler championed them back in the 80s (mant CDs of soprano horn music) and the German Brass are doing the same today.

Cheers,
EC

trumpetnick

Ed,

I suppose that this should be the vavle version of corno do caccia...My trumpet teacher had one and I played it few times. Nice instrument in B flat (the same guy used to say that this is french horn shaped flugelhorn, but it had a 4th rotary valve for 4th down. Sometimes is called mellophone, right? or is it different?...the true corno do caccia is a natural french horn, isn't it? And these thrills sounds very much "valved" to me...

Manny Laureano

So, Ed... where stands the debate regarding the actual tessitura of this piece for the trumpet? Have we been killing ourselves over an old mistkae or what? Can you come up with another piece by Bach or any other baroque composer that is written for trumpet in high F? I asked Tarr about this once and didn't get a real definitive answer.

Pressure's on, man....

ML

ecarroll

Nick,

The "modern" corno di caccia is a valved instrument. A 4-valve flugelhon shaped as a horn, if you will (horn-like flairs). I'm sure you're hearing valved trills.

Manny,

This, as you know, has been debated for years, due to speculation triggered by the portrait of Gottfried Reiche by E.G. Hassmann in which Bach's trumpeter is holding a coiled instrument, not a "normal" natural trumpet. Is it a horn? Is it a "Tromba di Caccia"? Was the instrument chosen for this sitting because it was his favorite or because it fit nicely into the painting?

(the piece of paper in Herr Reich's hand contains the only source of his Abblassen, by the way. It's perfectly legible)

I'm not a Bach scholar but believe that the 2nd Brandenburg was written for trumpet in high F. My reasoning is simply that the other three concertante soloists are soprano voices. I love the endless debate on this subject, however, and I've performed it on the corno di caccia -- just for kicks and grins. Music would be sooooo boring if we all thought the same, dontchathink?

Regarding tessitura -- the Michael Haydn, Richter, and Querfurth concerti go much higher than the 2ndBB. They were written for trumpet in D, D, and Eb respectively.

Cheers,
EC

Manny Laureano

Agreed. So, lemme ask you this: do you think that the the represenation of the horn in the painting is an F? I ask because in Broiles' studies and duet book he has that piece in there. He has the transposition listed as F trumpet. Now, I don't know whether that was Mel just pushing an envelope or if there was some info regarding that. Most people play it in D, as you know.

In other words, trumpet in F in the picture, fanfare in F? Should I quit worrying about this and go practice long tones?

Yes, I'll wait.

ML

GordonH

Interesting.

We get odd rotary valve soprano horn type instruments cropping up on Ebay.
See the bottom of this page for an example (no photo unfortunately)
http://www.firstbrass.co.uk/brass%20pages/cornets.html

I can't work out if its pitched like a piccolo trumpet or a normal trumpet.

On the octave issue, I can see the arguments for saying its in the high register. However, if Reiche could play like that and had an F trumpet would this not have cropped up in other pieces? Also, it actually sounds right in the lower pitch. It also sounds good on original instrument in the higher pitch. Where it does not sound so good is in some of the very strident recordings like the Adolf Sherbaum ones where the trumpet dominates the ensemble.