siarr

Sorry if this has been covered in previous threads, but I've always wondered why Strauss, Mahler and other composers have written their F (and E, Eb, etc.) trumpet parts well below the normal written trumpet range of F#. Did the F instruments of their day actually have the extra range down there (in other words was the range of the F trumpet analogous to that of the horn in F)? The Eb part in Ein Heldenleben goes down to written (small octave) c, which is a concert Eb, below the range of either C or Bb trumpet (OK, you can get it with extra slide on Bb, but it's not really in the range). Which horn(s) did these composers actually expect the parts to be played on, or was that left to the players? Thanks in advance for your insights. I've never been able to get a definitive answer on this point.

Cheers,
Chas

buccinator

Hi siarr,

the lower trumpet parts in the works of Richard Wagner, Richard Strauss and Gustav Mahler originally have benn performed on F-trumpets ( basso ). The time of the ending 19th and the beginning 20th century marks the point of changing from F to Bb Trumpet for the modern orchestral trumpet player. Nowadys the extremly low trumpet parts (such as 3rd trumpet in Tannhäuser)
normally are performed with the specific intonation and playing aids we all know ( trigger on 3rd valve, pitch-finder on main tuning slide or 4 valve Bb-trumpet )

Luis M. Araya

I´ve never seen a 4 valve Bb trumpet. But I´d love to, do you have any links?

LA

rowuk

I have one of these old F trumpets. My trumpet teacher (now almost 90) told me about the days where the orchestral trumpet players in Germany snubbed their noses at the "high Bb" trumpets because of the thin sound.
The F is a direct heir of the natural trumpet, being mostly cylindrical in bore. It has a much more "regal" sound. When I get some time, I'll record the Mahler 8 lick on F, Bb(piston and rotary), C and high Eb and put it on YouTube. I should have some time in the coming weeks!

Vulgano Brother

The low concert Eb is easily reached on my Schilke Bb with an extended third valve slide. The low Eb is one of the reasons for that funky two-piece third valve slide on Bach Bb (and D) trumpets. Some Bb instruments do seem to not want to play lower than concert E, so checking out all registers when testing a new trumpet is desirable.

Pedal C

I made a longer stop rod for my Bach Bb for the low F. It's just a piece of brass rod that I threaded. A repair shop can make one in a couple minutes. I can move the little nuts out so that the low F is in tune and there's a tiny little rubber ring next to the nuts so I don't have to worry about being to careful to avoid noise. You can see it in one of my pictures in the "pictures of your horn" thread.

Not that this is realated to WHY those parts are written that way but at least with the Bach style stopper, it's easy to make that note very playable.

I played a low F trumpet in an orchestra rehearsal once (the director was curious). It was interesting. Nearly impossible to match the volume of modern instruments. Part of this was the fact that I didn't have a particularly excellent mouthpiece for it...actually I don't really know what kind of mouthpiece should be used. In any event, it had a larger shank and the only mpc I could find that had that size shank (and very wide and deep cup!) was nickel plated and I'm allergic to nickel. A Bach 1 was the most playable (after wraping the shank with paper).

Rowuk...what kind of horn do you have and what mouthpiece should be used on it?

Jason.

JustinSmith

That sounds like a fun project Rowuk. Keep us posted.

jsnfmn

A few people here have touched on the answer without actually coming out and saying it, so I'll attempt it here.

So, the F Trumpet used in Mahler and Bruckner's day pitch-wise is similar to the Alto Trumpet in F that you see in many russian pieces (Rimsky Korsakov, early Shostakovich, even early Stravinsky), but they were and are completely different instruments supposedly constructed to emphasize different registers (though the alto trumpet did not really help with the lower register much, hence it subsequent disuse). However, the difference that is causing confusion here is that they are notated differently, the old F trumpet transposes UP from its overtone series and the alto trumpet transposes down from its overtone series. So, the way the F trumpet is notated, it's overtone series is an octave lower than we trumpet players are normally used to compared to the fingerings we use, so the pedal C is really not a pedal anymore and can be easily played open, and the G below the staff and the E at the bottom of the staff would also be played open, like on the Horn. In order to write an identically sounding part on both the old F trumpet and the F-alto Trumpet, the alto would have to be notated one octave higher. The Eb trumpet that Strauss used is analagous, hence those "pedal" Cs that he writes. I hope that makes sense.

Jason

rowuk

Jason,
I have a Reidl low F made in Austria in the late 19th century(1870). It has the same receiver and bore size as my rotary Bb. I use a Monette B2D Prana slap. Monette modifies the shank on my mouthpieces for the German trumpets. It is actually pitched in modern F# (common in Austria back then!) and came with a half tone crook for F. The original mouthpiece is also deep bowled with a sharp rim.

Trumpeterswain

I would love to hear that recording! Please keep us posted when you put it up.

I've been working on the Vaughan Williams London Symphony, which is scored for two trumpets in F and two cornets in Bb. Interestingly, the composer also provided a reduced two-trumpet part (in Bb) when four players aren't available. It makes me wonder if performers were truly using the F trumpet consistently in his day (a question I also have about Strauss and Mahler), or if Vaughan Williams was simply reflecting the prevailing composing and transcription practice of the same, and figuring that players and conductors would sort it out in the end. Writing the trumpet part for F allows for visual consistency with the French Horn part, so I can see how composers would find that useful in preparing the score. Perhaps that was the extent of their interest.

Along the same line, Samuel Barber's Capricorn Concerto is published with the part in C concert, but with a note that it can be played on a Bb trumpet and one passage (with a low E concert) must be played on a Bb. So then, why do the published parts not include a Bb transcription? Ok, ok, we should all be up on our sight transposition skills, but given the modern tonality of the piece, it's tough enough already!