I hope John Williams has good lawyers!

robertwhite · 06-17-2006, 09:48 AM

I don't think anything will come of this, but I thought it was kind of funny. Someone finally said "enough"!

http://www.knx1070.com/pages/45400.php

Quote:

"Gladiator" Composer Accused of Copyright Infringment

Priscilla Rodriguez Reporting
KNX 1070 NEWSRADIO

LOS ANGELES, CA (KNX) -- Hans Zimmer, Gladiator composer, is being sued by the Holst Foundation over the film's Oscar-nominated score.

Holst Foundation allege that the score is a copy of the late Gustav Holst's famous "Planet Suite."

If the Holst Foundation win their claim for infringement of copyright they could make millions of dollars, because sales of the film's soundtrack have gone platinum.

The music publishers who hold the copyright in Holst's works, J. Curwen & Sons state, "the same language, the same vocabulary, if not the same syntax" are used in the albums sleeve.

A Curwen spokesman says, "after a considerable period of discussion between the two parties it has become necessary to ask for the assistance of the courts."

The defense lawyer says, "Mr. Zimmer's work on Gladiator is world-renowned and is not in any sense a copy of Mars. Just listening to the two works is enough to tell any listener this claim has no merit."

When I listen to the two works, I'm amazed it took this long for someone to point out the similarity!

tpter1 · 06-17-2006, 09:58 AM

This could be really bad news for Mr. Williams. (Not that he does a terrible job...quite the contrary). So much of his music is "lifted" from major works. (Or is that "influenced by"?)

MahlerBrass · 06-17-2006, 11:06 AM

I don't understand why they went after Zimmer first, seems to be John Williams is the most obvious with his "quotes."

ptynan · 06-17-2006, 11:12 AM

Gezzz,

I am going to copyright V-I. I'll be rich!!!

Is imitation not the sincerest form of flattery? Maybe this takes it too far, but I don't think so. Could it be someone out to make a buck on something they didn't do?

PT

ps I know you can't copy chord changes....

mazzrick · 06-17-2006, 11:50 AM

This lawsuit could seriously open up a can of worms. Look at a good portion of Mozart's music and compare it to C.P.E. Bach or J.S. Bach... will the Bach estate sue the Mozart estate? I mean of course John Williams has ripped off music from nearly all composers. He's taken themes from every mouvement of Dvorak's 9th. Jaws (4th mvmt) , Stars Wars episode 1 (3rd mvmt), Harry Potter (1st mvmt), Episode 2's Love Theme, (2nd mvmt). Obviously from the Planets, from Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto (Princess Leah Theme). But Berio wrote an entire piece based off of Mahler 2 and composers steal stuff all the time. So while this is interesting and kind of funny, it could turn into huge trouble.

M

Tootsall · 06-17-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazzrick

So while this is interesting and kind of funny, it could turn into huge trouble.

M

Unless you're a copyright lawyer with not much else to do!...

ROGERIO · 06-17-2006, 02:10 PM

I think with the kind of money made today on movie scores and post release concerts... we need to shame some of these "arrangers" to back off and be more like composers and not arrangers. my 2 cents

robertwhite · 06-17-2006, 04:34 PM

Let's not get too worried about this. For one thing, the only reason this is even "sue-able" is because Holsts' works are still protected.

I have a feeling they are going into the public domain in the coming years, so this may be a last-ditch attempt by the publisher to wring some cash out of hapless Hans Zimmer (who totally did rip-off "Mars" for that stupid, stupid movie!).

Bach and Mozart's works are all squarely in the public domain at this point. No lawsuits going on there.

NickD · 06-17-2006, 06:27 PM

I have heard conflicting ideas about how these suits can go.

Personally, my heart doesn't bleed for Zimmer or Williams. They've made fortunes with this sort of imitation. If they're getting in trouble it is due to a bit of sloppiness - they didn't cover it up well. Face it, that's part of the game. I know of one jinlge producer who actually taught a course on how to imitate without violating the law!

Next, I'm not sure about copyrights on chord progressions. For example could Cole Porter make an issue out of Hot House (same changes as What Is This Thin Called Love)? When I first started researching copyright law for my work, I fond some folks who said "watch it" with regard to use the same changes of an old standard.

I guess the watch word is, "stay alert" when you're writing.

The world needs more lerts.

Nick

Whataguy! · 06-17-2006, 08:51 PM

"Lifting" is rampant in the film music world. Of course, the responsibility lies with the composer, but with an insistent director or producer, sometimes anything goes. Williams and Zimmer are in the limelight now, so they'll get targeted first. But if they're going to go after film composers, why don't they go for the gusto: Carter Burwell who, in "Doc Hollywood," lifted from Prokofieff. Andrew Lloyd Webber who, in "JC Superstar," lifted from Mendelsohn. James Horner who lifted from work for hire pieces he wrote. And Quincy Jones who had to hire the actual composer of the theme from "The Color Purple." And those are just the cases that came to mind.

What to do? I don't know. But what I'm saying now is if they're going to go after Williams and Zimmer, they'll have to go after a lot of people in the business.

p.s. The theme from "Gladiator" sort of reminded me of a minor "Bye Bye Birdie."

06-17-2006, 09:58 AM	#2 (permalink)
tpter1 Forte User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern New York Brand: Lawler Posts: 2,309	This could be really bad news for Mr. Williams. (Not that he does a terrible job...quite the contrary). So much of his music is "lifted" from major works. (Or is that "influenced by"?)
	__________________ -Glenn "Roses have thorns; shining waters mud. Clouds and eclipses stain the moon and the sun; and history reeks of the wrongs we have done. After today, after today, consider me gone."- Sting

06-17-2006, 11:06 AM	#3 (permalink)
MahlerBrass Piano User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 371	I don't understand why they went after Zimmer first, seems to be John Williams is the most obvious with his "quotes."
	__________________ Music isn't a career, it's a way of life.

06-17-2006, 11:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
ptynan Pianissimo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Brand: Edwards Posts: 232	Gezzz, I am going to copyright V-I. I'll be rich!!! Is imitation not the sincerest form of flattery? Maybe this takes it too far, but I don't think so. Could it be someone out to make a buck on something they didn't do? PT ps I know you can't copy chord changes....
	__________________ Paul Tynan "Now Available in California!!"

06-17-2006, 06:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
NickD Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago northern suburbs Posts: 812	This stuff get's cloudy... I have heard conflicting ideas about how these suits can go. Personally, my heart doesn't bleed for Zimmer or Williams. They've made fortunes with this sort of imitation. If they're getting in trouble it is due to a bit of sloppiness - they didn't cover it up well. Face it, that's part of the game. I know of one jinlge producer who actually taught a course on how to imitate without violating the law! Next, I'm not sure about copyrights on chord progressions. For example could Cole Porter make an issue out of Hot House (same changes as What Is This Thin Called Love)? When I first started researching copyright law for my work, I fond some folks who said "watch it" with regard to use the same changes of an old standard. I guess the watch word is, "stay alert" when you're writing. The world needs more lerts. Nick
	__________________ NickD NYTC Stage 1 Artist - Authorized Chicagoland Dealer http://www.newyorktrumpetcompany.com/ http://www.nickdrozdoff.com http://www.myspace.com/nickdrozdoff

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06-17-2006, 11:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
mazzrick Pianissimo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 108	This lawsuit could seriously open up a can of worms. Look at a good portion of Mozart's music and compare it to C.P.E. Bach or J.S. Bach... will the Bach estate sue the Mozart estate? I mean of course John Williams has ripped off music from nearly all composers. He's taken themes from every mouvement of Dvorak's 9th. Jaws (4th mvmt) , Stars Wars episode 1 (3rd mvmt), Harry Potter (1st mvmt), Episode 2's Love Theme, (2nd mvmt). Obviously from the Planets, from Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto (Princess Leah Theme). But Berio wrote an entire piece based off of Mahler 2 and composers steal stuff all the time. So while this is interesting and kind of funny, it could turn into huge trouble. M

06-17-2006, 02:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
ROGERIO Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: PHOENIX, AZ Posts: 926	I think with the kind of money made today on movie scores and post release concerts... we need to shame some of these "arrangers" to back off and be more like composers and not arrangers. my 2 cents

06-17-2006, 04:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
robertwhite Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 466	Let's not get too worried about this. For one thing, the only reason this is even "sue-able" is because Holsts' works are still protected. I have a feeling they are going into the public domain in the coming years, so this may be a last-ditch attempt by the publisher to wring some cash out of hapless Hans Zimmer (who totally did rip-off "Mars" for that stupid, stupid movie!). Bach and Mozart's works are all squarely in the public domain at this point. No lawsuits going on there.

06-17-2006, 08:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
Whataguy! Pianissimo User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 51	"Lifting" is rampant in the film music world. Of course, the responsibility lies with the composer, but with an insistent director or producer, sometimes anything goes. Williams and Zimmer are in the limelight now, so they'll get targeted first. But if they're going to go after film composers, why don't they go for the gusto: Carter Burwell who, in "Doc Hollywood," lifted from Prokofieff. Andrew Lloyd Webber who, in "JC Superstar," lifted from Mendelsohn. James Horner who lifted from work for hire pieces he wrote. And Quincy Jones who had to hire the actual composer of the theme from "The Color Purple." And those are just the cases that came to mind. What to do? I don't know. But what I'm saying now is if they're going to go after Williams and Zimmer, they'll have to go after a lot of people in the business. p.s. The theme from "Gladiator" sort of reminded me of a minor "Bye Bye Birdie."

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