Venturion

At a quintet rehearsal last night we were talking about ornamentation, and we realized that we really don't have much info about what would be appropriate, tasteful, historically informed, and practical.

I've worked with a guy a few times who tosses in connecting runs and the occasional trill or mordant or two, convincingly, and it does seem to animate and energize the proceedings.

I wonder if that is all it is, just what "seems like it works", inspired in the moment.

Or, are their codified conventions? Notable references or treatises with examples?

When I listen to certain recordings, I can lift some of the techniques, but without much understanding of the rules of the game, if there be such.

Other than the approach to "ornament at will on repeating sections", I would just be faking it (as a jazzer is wont to do anyway!), simulating recordings I've heard. I'd much rather understand the principles.

Because something is possible on picc, or even any valve trumpet, does that mean it is "acceptable" to do so, when the original material was from the era of natural trumpets, when it would have been virtually impossible to connect a run between certain harmonics, or to perform certain trills (I think). I think I've heard some overly-decorated interpretations.

I know this is a technical concern much of the general listening public is not likely to care about -- modern trumpeters quasi-recreating music of 400 years ago can wiggle a finger at a cadence, and who would object? -- but one does want to breathe life into this material in a way that is not cringe-worthy to those who may really know and care about these details.

And, in orchestral practice, how much leeway would you have to augment your part? Do you need to clear it with the boss or are you on your own?

Also, when multiple trumpets are involved at the same time, is the 2nd trumpet also to ornament his part where it cadentially resolves, or in connecting certain notes?

Just trying to get a grasp on nuance, from Dixieland to descant.

Many thanks for your thoughts!

-- V.

Manny Laureano

A huge question, that.

My study of ornamentation is limited, at best. I learned by example and hands on help from people like Gerry Schwarz, as he was my quintet coach at school. I learned from Albert Fuller on the occasions I got to play with his baroque ensemble at school.

Vacchiano gave a basic idea about not over-ornamenting and not trilling too fast. He believed less was more.

So, you see, what I learned was from the oral tradition and not so much from investigating treatises. I played some jobs with Schwarz as 2nd trumpet where I did a lot of imitating after he had ornamented a phrase. He liked and encouraged that with me.

I tend to take it easy with ornamentation but, you see, how much baroque music do I get to play with the orchestra in light of the fact thatthe St. Paul Chamber Orchestra is right across the river? I've played Messiah, B minor Mass, Magnificat, Water Music, Let the Bright Seraphim... the usual sorts of things.

I think this is a topic that Ed Carroll would have some great things to say.

I'd be fine with double-posting this one ( just this once!) because his perspective would be good for you to read.

ML

Venturion

Well, Manny, I much appreciate what you've presented, especially the "less is more" idea, so the oral tradition (or maybe verbal tradition) is sort of at play here, too: from WV to ML to Venturion.

That validates my instinctive reaction to some things I've heard that were rather too florid, to the point where it seemed more "showboating" for the trumpeter rather than done in service to the musical line. Impressive, yes, but I suppose it means more, is more exciting, when strategically and sparingly deployed.

And I dig the encouragement for 2nd tpt to feel empowered to similarly contribute his (always tastefully executed!) ornamentations.

Ok, then, I'll copy this on over to Ed Carroll. Many thanks, sir.

-- V.

GordonH

I would recommend having go at natural trumpet playing because this will give you an understanding of what was possible at the time these pieces were written. My first natural trumpet was made from the bell of a scrap chinese trumpet, some plumbing pipe and some other leadpipe parts from the chinese instrument.

Trills on natural trumpet tend to be slower and I think they would have got faster as the trill progressed just because of the physics of doing it with your lip (you tend to start slower in case you don't hit the right note).

Also, if you are playing with singers you need to negotiate how they are going to ornament things. Try finding a copy of John Wallace doing Let the Bright Seraphim. The soloist sings the ornamentation, then he ehoes it. Each time the same bit of tune comes in its more ornamented but both the singer and the trumpet player do it so it makes sense.

Venturion

Thank you Gordon. Very interesting point and perspective, especially about the trill. I hadn't thought of that. And I'll locate that Wallace recording if I can.

A colleague of mine in a brass band is also somewhat experienced in natural trumpet, and I tried playing one once for about 3 minutes. I think I got intimidated by realizing how much time I'd need to devote to make any significant progress on that quite different animal.

One's life is already a "full plate" and the trumpeter's work is never done, especially in these times with so many styles and genres in which to be conversant if not expert. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and pursue natural trumpet. (But do I have to wear those damn leotards and tunics, is what I wanna know?)

Check out the conversation on this topic over on Ed Carroll's area, if you haven't already. Some great info has already been gathered there.

All best, and thanks again,
-- V.

rowuk

If you want examples of correct historic trumpet playing, I can recommend Niklas Eklunds baroque recordings. he accomplishes with a natural trumpet things that many others don't with a piccolo.
To study this stuff, any of Ed Tarrs books are a great first start.