retiredoc

Dear Mr. L.

with the ever increasing pushing of the pitch envelope, especially in europe, i am wondering if this phenomenom efects you. like trumpets, other instruments have recently gone through their own "hand made revolution" and i am told that woodwinds, especially flutes are made particularly sharp. i can recal from an old monette catolog from 1991 that instruments could be made at a-440 or a=442; the latter for european orchestras.

if you have a moment, could you expound on this a bit. and i am interested how this pitch phenomenom affects you personaly, and specifically with other players, such as woodwinds in your orchestra who have instruments that are designed to play optimally at a higher pitch than your instrument.

thank you

p.s.

i understand that recordings in the america still conform to a=440

(small caps are good!)

Manny Laureano

I don't notice the woodwinds in the MO being any sharper than any other section in the orchestra. There are moments but every orchestra has those. We tune, by contract, to A 440 and Osmo pretty much keeps us there. The only time you have to adjust is playing piano concertos in places like Vienna where they play about 444, I think. But thats Doug's job, so, I don't lose much sleep over it

So, there's nothing for me to expound on, sorry. I practice playing in tune and if I'm in tune with myself I'm generally in tune with the orchestra.

trumpetnick

Manny,

You should be lucky, man! Blessed those with sharp pitched horns ...or probably I should bring once more my horns to spada, especially the C trumpet...440 is fine or me, but my orchestra is playing 442. With the B flat there is no problem but the C trumpet....I have to put the bell and the tunning slide in so I can achieve that. I cannot imagine doing that on 444. If you start on 444 does it not get to 445 or 446 by the end of the first part of the concert?

rowuk

Tuning your instrument has the advantage of being able to play resonantly on most notes. If you do not tune properly, you have to lip up or down, decreasing tone quality and endurance.

René Spada can shorten your horn somewhat if you can't push in enough.

Increasing pitch during a concert has more to do with the hall temperature going up than with bad string playing habits.
If you need to tune higher and can't, get your horn adjusted. There is no excuse for unsatisfactory equipment any more. Improved manufacturing and artists like Spada have brought much higher tuning and playing quality and consistency to all of us. We just need to use it!

trumpetnick

I could not say it better. Ansolutely true, and that is the reason why I doslike entirely lipping. That is exactly why I decided to go for the Sapda piccolo with 2 triggers (3rd an 1st piston slides)

I am sure of that but unfortunately now I am living about 2000Km from Burgdorf...

Sure, but the my problem remains, whatever the cause. I would say also due to increased wind instruments temperature cause they are warming up

How do musician manage that playing on conventional trumpets? and the problem becomes even bigger if you play outside...

Vulgano Brother

I had to shorten my Monette tuning-bell Capri C when I moved to Germany. The place to do it is at the bell, not the tuning slide.

connloyalist

I play in a band in the Netherlands (Europe) and we tune at A=442. Always have, through several conductors. I am not sure why.

Anyway, the guy who sits next to me has a Strad 72. He had to have his trumpet shortened because it was always flat. They did it (professionally) at the tuning slide by about 1/3" at both ends (the leadpipe and the tube leading to the 3rd valve). Much better now but he still doesn't have a lot of "room to maneuver" in the tuning slide.

Two of the euphonium players have new Besson's. Compensating, definitely not bottom of the line. Both have a tendency to be flat.

Which leads to me question whether these days instruments are designed/built flatter than in the past causing the tuning slide to not go in far enough. My instrument is 59 years old and I always have to pull it out about an inch (it has been getting longer over the past months.... weird). Of course it is very dependent on the player, the mouthpiece, etc., but still....

Regards, Christine

rowuk

Maybe we need to look at history a little closer!
440 was not always concert pitch. if we go back to the baroque period in Germany there were 3 or 4 documented variations. The first 2 were Kammerton (approx A=415) und Chorton (A=460). My research in France shows several organ intonations of A=392 and in 1788 409Hz. In England as high as a=470. Going into the classical/romantic period we had Vienna at the top of the pack with A=465 and certain records of tuning as high as A=490. England during this time settled down a bit and I have found a=438 documented a couple of times. The 20th century brought a desire for standardisation and in 1939 A=440 at 20 degrees celcius was established.

Alex Yates

Thank you for the history Rowuk.

Some orchestras still tune to different "A"s. I thought I even read once that St. Louis has A=441 specified in their contracts. I am pretty sure of that, but they might have changed by now. Most groups do tune to 440, but orchestra pitch does climb the longer we stay on stage playing - hence the "A" check by the oboe now and then.

I had the opposite problem in Europe. The organs were tuned very low and the churches were freezing cold most of the time. I played a chamber orchestra gig once (in the middle of April) and we were surrounded by electric heaters. It didn't help. My tuning slide was all the way in and I couldn't get it up to pitch without major chop manipulation.

For a long time I practiced at A=441 so that swaying a bit in either direction was not a big deal. Now, I default to 440 and adjust as the gigs dictate.

uatrmpt

I find it interesting that an orchestra has to have specified in its contract that A=440 is the tuning pitch. Would there be major disagreements if it werent'?

Might be a cool idea for a different thread: odd things in orchestral contracts!