Trills

Bear · 07-21-2006, 10:51 PM

Quick question as I've seen this explained several different ways.

Classical trills, style, etc.

Assuming C major, approaching trill from A to B trilling from B to C.

I've seen some people go: A, C, B, trill (CBCBCBCBC)

or

I've also seen people go: A, B, trill (CBCBCBCB)

Is this a personal taste, minor nuance, or is there a reason for the discrepancy?

I'm doing a lot of studing and listen to orch/solo stuff right now, and this just caught my attention.

trumpet blower88 · 07-22-2006, 01:00 AM

From what my teachers have taught me, around the Haydn and Hummel era, things started to change.

Teacher 1 said: pieces from Haydn and earlier (so the old old old stuff) should be played the first way you described, starting the trill from the upper neighbor. Pieces from Hummel and so fourth (so, the kinda old stuff to newer stuff) should be played starting on the note written, the second way you described.

Teacher 2 said: Pre-Haydn should be played the first way, and Post-Hummel should be played the second way. I guess she dosn't really know what to do when playing the Haydn or the Hummel. (maybe a litle of both?)

I agree more with Teacher 1, but I think the Haydn Concerto should also be played that second way (starting the trill on the note written).

Basicaly, to sum it up, Haydn and Hummel were kind of "experimental composers" who tried some new things, this being one of them. And it sort of stuck, after them most trills were played starting on the note written.

Does anyone know if I'm right or not? The way my teachers explained seemed very convincing, so I think I'm fairly close, haha.

samdaman · 07-29-2006, 06:05 PM

Hey Bear and Trp Blower,

Trumpet Blower: I do believe you are right. That's the way I've heard it and been taught it. As for the Hummel and Hadyn that's the way I've played them if respects to trills.

Bear: Even though this is the way that it's "suppose" to work, it doesn't always. There are a couple of Wynton recording that I have where he uses both ways throughout a piece that "should" be done in one style. (It's one of those things that sometimes works out to be a 'which way is easier' type of things.)

That's my .02

Albert Castillo · 08-11-2006, 03:17 PM

Hi,

You are all right. Theorically, there is a change of trill styl after Beethoven. That is, Haydn's trills should beginn with the upper note, and Hummel not (because he was contemporary of Beethoven).
But... that's only theory of the Conservatory
Haydn's and Hummel's Concertos were wrote very near in time. Do you thing all musicians in Europe have change his styl from a year to another?

And: about trilling with the upper note. Theory says: you shouldn't do it, if the note before is the same, so: don't repeat the note before. If trill is on "B" and the note before is "C", you don't have to play the trill on the upper note.

I hope that helps...

Best Wishes

rowuk · 08-12-2006, 09:33 AM

The easiest way to find out the truth for Haydn and Hummel is to study what they did best: String Quartets/Quintets and the like. Mostly, the grace notes are notated there. For baroque music, buy a Niklas Eklund natural trumpet CD. He has this stuff down to a science and gets praised by all sorts of reviewers for his attention to these details.
I think Ed Tarr has also devoted several chapters to this in his various publications. The general rule start on the higher note or whatever is not historically sound. After you have researched it and found real rules, write a book on it (I'll buy a copy!), or just publish the info here - we would all appreciate it I am sure!
Good luck!
Robin

Albert Castillo · 08-14-2006, 09:27 AM

Of course, you are right, about the recomendation about chamber music. But I should remind, trills in both ways were wrote with the same symbol. What is notated are editorial addings.
The Rules above are traditional rules. They are, of course, not historically. These Rules are in use maybe since 1850 aprox. or later. Works of Prof. Dr. Tarr are the very best on this Thema. There is the true Information that we have today about this. There's too always controversy.
I would insist: there is always a choice. You can be inspired by historically fonts, classic-traditional rules or by you hear from great players. If not in Audition or in exam, there's no problem. If someone blame you, because you execute a false trill... man, ask him about all the music that you play before and after the trill

!!!!

samdaman · 08-14-2006, 04:56 PM

haha.... veil danke Herr Castillo... Often times trills go by very fast and it's more important to consentrate on the music and not just one trill. It's like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Keep it simple and play what's written.

07-21-2006, 10:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
Bear Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: CO Posts: 795	Trills Quick question as I've seen this explained several different ways. Classical trills, style, etc. Assuming C major, approaching trill from A to B trilling from B to C. I've seen some people go: A, C, B, trill (CBCBCBCBC) or I've also seen people go: A, B, trill (CBCBCBCB) Is this a personal taste, minor nuance, or is there a reason for the discrepancy? I'm doing a lot of studing and listen to orch/solo stuff right now, and this just caught my attention. __________________ Of what value would it be to make a prosperous living unless you know how to live?! - anon.

07-22-2006, 01:00 AM	#2 (permalink)
trumpet blower88 Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 644	From what my teachers have taught me, around the Haydn and Hummel era, things started to change. Teacher 1 said: pieces from Haydn and earlier (so the old old old stuff) should be played the first way you described, starting the trill from the upper neighbor. Pieces from Hummel and so fourth (so, the kinda old stuff to newer stuff) should be played starting on the note written, the second way you described. Teacher 2 said: Pre-Haydn should be played the first way, and Post-Hummel should be played the second way. I guess she dosn't really know what to do when playing the Haydn or the Hummel. (maybe a litle of both?) I agree more with Teacher 1, but I think the Haydn Concerto should also be played that second way (starting the trill on the note written). Basicaly, to sum it up, Haydn and Hummel were kind of "experimental composers" who tried some new things, this being one of them. And it sort of stuck, after them most trills were played starting on the note written. Does anyone know if I'm right or not? The way my teachers explained seemed very convincing, so I think I'm fairly close, haha. __________________ -David Jacques

07-29-2006, 06:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
samdaman Pianissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Reading PA Posts: 63	Hey Bear and Trp Blower, Trumpet Blower: I do believe you are right. That's the way I've heard it and been taught it. As for the Hummel and Hadyn that's the way I've played them if respects to trills. Bear: Even though this is the way that it's "suppose" to work, it doesn't always. There are a couple of Wynton recording that I have where he uses both ways throughout a piece that "should" be done in one style. (It's one of those things that sometimes works out to be a 'which way is easier' type of things.) That's my .02 __________________ -Sam Tate -Bach 43LR Reverse Lead -Benge 90C Trumpet -Gold Schilke E3L Eb/D -Yahmaha 6310Z Bobby Shew Flugel -Warburton 3 series and a GR67FL When in doubt, go with the FLOW... it's all about the flow... musical line and tone production :) www.music.psu.edu

08-12-2006, 09:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,130	The easiest way to find out the truth for Haydn and Hummel is to study what they did best: String Quartets/Quintets and the like. Mostly, the grace notes are notated there. For baroque music, buy a Niklas Eklund natural trumpet CD. He has this stuff down to a science and gets praised by all sorts of reviewers for his attention to these details. I think Ed Tarr has also devoted several chapters to this in his various publications. The general rule start on the higher note or whatever is not historically sound. After you have researched it and found real rules, write a book on it (I'll buy a copy!), or just publish the info here - we would all appreciate it I am sure! Good luck! Robin __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

08-14-2006, 09:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
Albert Castillo Pianissimo User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 107	Of course, you are right, about the recomendation about chamber music. But I should remind, trills in both ways were wrote with the same symbol. What is notated are editorial addings. The Rules above are traditional rules. They are, of course, not historically. These Rules are in use maybe since 1850 aprox. or later. Works of Prof. Dr. Tarr are the very best on this Thema. There is the true Information that we have today about this. There's too always controversy. I would insist: there is always a choice. You can be inspired by historically fonts, classic-traditional rules or by you hear from great players. If not in Audition or in exam, there's no problem. If someone blame you, because you execute a false trill... man, ask him about all the music that you play before and after the trill !!!! __________________ Albert A. Castillo

08-11-2006, 03:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
Albert Castillo Pianissimo User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 107	Hi, You are all right. Theorically, there is a change of trill styl after Beethoven. That is, Haydn's trills should beginn with the upper note, and Hummel not (because he was contemporary of Beethoven). But... that's only theory of the Conservatory Haydn's and Hummel's Concertos were wrote very near in time. Do you thing all musicians in Europe have change his styl from a year to another? And: about trilling with the upper note. Theory says: you shouldn't do it, if the note before is the same, so: don't repeat the note before. If trill is on "B" and the note before is "C", you don't have to play the trill on the upper note. I hope that helps... Best Wishes

08-14-2006, 04:56 PM	#7 (permalink)
samdaman Pianissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Reading PA Posts: 63	haha.... veil danke Herr Castillo... Often times trills go by very fast and it's more important to consentrate on the music and not just one trill. It's like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Keep it simple and play what's written. __________________ -Sam Tate -Bach 43LR Reverse Lead -Benge 90C Trumpet -Gold Schilke E3L Eb/D -Yahmaha 6310Z Bobby Shew Flugel -Warburton 3 series and a GR67FL When in doubt, go with the FLOW... it's all about the flow... musical line and tone production :) www.music.psu.edu

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