retiredoc

hi all,

i'm posting this in ed's corner as his place here seems, in my opinion, to draw and evoke the most inteligent posts and responses. and the trumpet jocks seem to gravitate to the other artist areas.

ok, let give it a try.

in the world of the jazz trumpet today, there is/are no true honest leaders.

now that statement will set some people on fire. others will want to set me on fire!! that's ok, i know you mean well and at this point i'm used to it.

as a keen observer of jazz and the trumpet since the late 60s (i'm 50,) there has been a whole new crop of trumpet players since freddie hubbard and an even larger crop since wynton marsalis, and we are now into our second generation of trumpet players post marsalis.

i like to draw analogies--it's the teacher in me. like all of the great social/political figures of the 60s who were killed off (marcus garvey, jfk, martin luther king, malcom x, rfk,) the same existed with the trumpet (lee, booker,clifford, and others.)

as in our society, there is a power vacume in today's jazz trumpet world.

let's look a bit closer:

who is out their today, who stands away from the pack and functions as an"arbitrator" of the jazz trumpet as miles did during his career?

marsalis and botti: both men of talent, but creations of the media industry who came upon stardom by societal convention rather than art. lets go back to politics in order to gleen an understanding. i'll give one name: angela davis (if you don't know who she is, you better find out where she fits in before you bash this post--especially if you're under 45.)

dave douglas: another media darling who has moved in to create an musical environment not unlike the windham hill artists of the 80s; notably george winston.

hargrove: here is a player, who when he hit in the laye 80s, would not have been accepted into some of our middle level jazz programs. today: perhaps one of the great players out there. but in all honesty, when you're touring with someone like sonny rollins, herbie hancock, and the like before you are 21, you are going to get better. his has been a fairy-tale story

jenson, allesi, lynch, hagans, hino, (blanchard, marginally):

here are true artists following a path; respecting a tradition behind them; avoiding trends and fads, but: are too involved in making honest music rather than making outlandish, incendiary remarks that serve to inflame rather than inform from a point of view of commentary. or perhaps even more: knowing that their voices will not be heard in the myopic world of the jazz trumpet today, they just don't say much. these players are the real heros today

goode, harbsion, mcneil, jenkins, (and lots of guys and gals you never heard of who slave away):

these are the academic trumpet players. and i mean academic in the literal sense. their day gigs keep them mighty busy (i know, i used to be one) and they must watch what they say--tenure is not what it once was in America. plus their primary responsibility is to their students, even at the sake of their own careers and practicing. mcneil may be an exception, but his gig is not full time.

all of the under 35s:

rehash of the sos, at their best. i could go on, but i'll stop.

woody shaw:

perhaps the truest player to live in modern times only to go down during the prime of his life.

i have left out some names, i am sure.

so where does this leave us, friends?

i will posit that during the last 30 years, the most honest trumpet player in jazz: musically, phenomenologically, and from a sheer creative linear evolution:

Tom Harrell

thanks for listening!

(small caps are good)

kadleck

No compaints here. Gotta love Tom Harrell. Probably next in line after Woody.

I'll bring the popcorn.

TK

beartrumpet74

Ok - I'll wade in here, but I know I'm doing so at my own peril.

First off let me say that I believe there are new and fresh or original voices in the jazz trumpet world right now.

Secondly did Miles really sit as the "arbitor" of the jazz trumpet in the 60's?
Or was Miles more of a leader for jazz overall. This point could get real academic real quick, and thus I'm not gonna visit anymore than that.

What does "Arbitor" mean?
Are you saying that in order to be considered a truely honest artist and leader, you need to be out there flapping your gums at every chance you get about the music? I would submit that Jensen, Hagans, Harrell, WALLACE RONEY ( not a miles clone so don't even go there...thems fightin words with me LOL!!!), and the rest are leading by example with their music. I personally don't need to hear someone pontifacate on the merits of their music or where jazz is headed in order to see them as a leade... maybe it's different for others... no judgement here... just a thought...

As far as all the under 35's being a rehash, this is a flip and easy thing to say and has become somewhat fashionable nowadays, but how are you proving that statement? What imperical evidence to you submit to support that? Are you speaking harmonically? If you are, then once you get past Coltrane, has anyone done something new?

Of all the players you mentioned, Clay Jenkins strikes me as the most original. I would also heartily agree that Tom Harrell is one of if not the most honest player out there right now, but I even have problems saying that, because what about Ingrid? Her voice to me is EXTREMELY fresh and doesn't smack of too much copycatting... The same is true in my book for Hagans, Jenkins, and yes even Wallace Roney, because though he may have a huge Miles influence, he has taken that sound far beyond Miles in my opinion. To me he is the very epicenter of what a jazz trumpeter should be right now. I would also include Jensen, Jenkins, Hagans, and a few others in there.

I'm not sure here, and I don't want to give the impression that I think your post as all wrong or anything... I just think it's a little too easy to dismiss the young players today as copycatting rather than making their own statement. At any rate. maybe i'll post again in much more detail this weekend when I get time to write something in word and paste it. That way I can provide my own proof of my assertions. Nice thread though... it does provoke thought..
I was wondering if you are m4 from TH though. Your post kind of had that voice...
Thanks
Matt

retiredoc

dear people,

thanks to those who have responded thus far and to the PMs. keep the responses coming.

the thread is obviously biased from a specific perspective and invites response of all sort.

when the thread seems to be over, i'll address your points, objections, et al.

life is a mediocre place. stand up for your ideas.

discussion is a good thing, like small caps!

ecarroll

Doc,

I'm not certain that this particular forum attracts a different crowd than the others but thank you for the compliment.

Honesty is key, obviously, in true music making in any genre and musical motivation has long been of interest to me. For the record I had Tim Hagans on my jazz faculty at Lake Placid (along with Billy Hart, Gary Peacock, Joe Lovano, Jim McNeely, Kenny Werner and Brookmeyer) back in 2000 for exactly that reason.

Watching quietly with interest.
EC

mahaberio

I'm not quite sure what your criteria for a "true honest leader is", but I think you'd be doing a lot of very innovative artists a disservice to assume that there is nothing original going on. Check out Amir El Saffar's Two Rivers Suite. Also, Matt Shulman used to do quite of bit of experimental and innovative music. There used to be a video of him up online performing at the Kennedy Center and he was doing some very, very interesting work (including a piece with a live dancer and an interactive dance video).

Here's a very interesting and unreserved take on the state of jazz from Diamanda Galás:

NewMusicBox (click the video)

Discuss amongst yourselves.

-Matthew

Brekelefuw

I wouldn't call Dave Douglas a media darling whatsoever.

Dave

..

the_crime

I would certainly like to second (or third) the backings of Dave Douglas and Kenny Wheeler, as far as innovators in the field. Listen to Kenny's Music for Large and Small Ensembles if you want to hear something that understood what tradition was and took it too a new level.

As for Dave Douglas, he has long spoken to the importance of history, tradition, lineage and innovation. One of his big concepts is that jazz didn't end with the 70s. Furthermore, he has demonstrated his understanding and pushed the artistic envelopes of music. From the perspective I see, he has done what many great jazz artists do: take ideas based in tradition and in the present, combine and make them his own. We could argue all day whether or not what he is doing is JAZZ (I think so), but here are a few examples:

Keystone - successful integration of electronics and live dj'ing into improvisation.
Tiny Bell Trio - integration of european folk music with jazz/free jazz
The Infinite - New standard tunes - using present popular music and beyond.
Mountain Passages - Beautiful! Pushing the boundaries of improvisation and what instrumentalists can do together to make beautiful music.
Charms of the Night Sky - again, folk music, improvisation and jazz.
Writing his own language of improvisation - I do not think I am the only one who has read about his creation of his own 12 tone improvisation language.

Is it not true that many different things can be built on a foundation of tradition? Certainly Dave Douglas is pushing the tradition into new directions and doing something innovative, creative and artistic.

I would also contend that there is a significant difference between someone who is a media darling and someone who markets themself very very well.

I certainly understand your point, and have found myself lamenting the same things. It makes me think: 60 years ago, were there really THAT many innovators, or was there just more of the music going on?

Richard Oliver

Me neither. And asking, "what constitutes a dishonest jazz musician" didn't help much either.

Seems like a trope for a fish you want to fry. Can you put it in the pan plainly?

Are you looking for someone whom to be "the interpreter" or "savant" and not finding one -- or being dissatisfied with the more publicized voices -- consider what is being said as disingenuous?

Regards,

Richard