wiseone2

The term is tossed around lots, but there were few real innovators in jazz.
Pops, Bird, Duke, Diz come to mind immediately. These musicians changed the language of music.
Their music transcended the instruments they played. Bird quoting Pops solos, Diz quoting Bird. Their music was universal.
Pops, Diz and Miles are the fathers of jazz trumpet today.
Wilmer

PS
Listen to WKCR-FM. This station plays Bird every morning.
http://wkcr.org/

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ScreaminRaider

Amen, Wilmer

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Jonathan Wright

PH

Real innovation is a rare and beautiful thing. In a century of jazz you can probably count the true innovators on your fingers and never need your thumbs.

Of course, who the real innovators in jazz history are is something that people can debate endlessly. I think Wilmer's "big 4" are above dispute.

My list would be:

Armstrong
Ellington
Parker
Gillespie
Miles
Ornette Coleman
Coltrane
Bill Evans

See, didn't need my thumbs!

trickg

Are we listing singers too, or just instrumentalists?

What about Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holiday? Nat "King" Cole? Even Mel Torme could be considered for placement on the list of innovators.

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Welk

What about Thomas Fats Waller??? If he didn't innovate, I matter what he did?

And Btw, I do not consider, in my oppion, that Miles innovate in jazz, because I don,t call jazz what he played... But of course, he innovated in music... Bringing a cold feelingless feel to it!

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Tootsall

Brubeck, Morello, Wright and Desmond?
Thelonius Monk?

wiseone2

What I had in mind are the Jazz Masters who define the music the way Bach, Beethoven, Haydn, Debussy, Stravinsky did.
The players on my list were not only fine players, they shaped the music and in some cases defined as Diz and Bird did the langauge of the music.
Wilmer

__________________
Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear.
S.Suark 1951

frank

Hmm Welk,

Let's just say that Miles and your feeling are just incompatible?!?

ScreaminRaider

Ok, so I thought about this topic some more and came to this conclusion.

This is a topic of debate, because so many people have so many different opinions on who is an Innovator and who isn't. So, here is my idea on the subject. I see an innovator as someone who influences everybody around him in his field (fill in his/her as needed). I completely agree with Wilmer, his list was right on. All those musicians were innovators in their field. However, Jazz has so many sides. I do believe that there are many jazz Innovators, just in the trumpet genre. Guys like Satchmo, Doc, Diz, Miles, Maynard, Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown...., etc. All of these performers defined the trumpet. Most of us, if not all of us play the trumpet because of what these gentlemen did. THAT is innovation. Of course, I left some names off the list, but you get the idea. Then we can get into Jazz as a whole. Stan Kenton, Count Basie, Thelonius Monk, Benny Goodman..., etc. Then you have vocal jazz. Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, and of course the man, Frank Sinatra. Do ya'll catch my drift? That is what I think innovation is. Thank you, goodnight.

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Jonathan Wright

robertwhite

Screamin' Raider, with all due respect I think you and many others are missing the point of what "innovator" really means. We're not talking about giants of a particular instrument, or even influential artists necessarily.

Being influential on your instrument or in your music and being a truly innovative musician are two different things. We're talking about people who reshaped the music, and affected the way we think about it today. (I know you said the exact same thing, Wilmer, but it bears repeating! )

Miles indisputably has to be on any such list. It's not even really a matter of opinion. You may not like his trumpet playing, but jazz wouldn't be what it is without him. Ask any professional jazz pianist, saxophonist, drummer, whatever. They all see Miles' importance.

Freddie Hubbard on the other hand is someone we all hold in the highest esteem for his musicianship and trumpet playing. He's creative, energetic, full of personality, and original. But he didn't change the course of jazz in a lasting way. Doesn't mean he isn't one of the greatest - just not one of the innovators.

Someone like Stan Kenton was certainly original, but his interesting directions failed to make a lasting impact on jazz as a whole. His music is very interesting, iconoclastic, and many think it's great. But he's not one of the great innovators - sorry.

Pat, I'm curious why you didn't include Monk, but did include Bill Evans? I'd love to hear your opinions on this.

Take care,
Bob