commakozzi

I'm very interested in jazz theory. I'm discovering new ways of thinking about improvisation almost everyday. In fact, there's a plethora of things I discovered in my last improv session that I won't even be able to touch for awhile. I have pretty well founded base in music theory, and standard Bach four part harmony has obviously evolved over the years, and probably one of the most advanced evolutionary effects has been the creation of jazz (and the theory surrounding it). However, is it really that advanced, or am I just looking at things incorrectly, i.e. am I not as well founded in standard theory as I suspected? For instance, I'm using the Aebersold Volume 24 for my scale practice each day. The volume is split into majors and minors on two separate discs. However, you really could just play majors through both CDs. Jazz theory guys will know what that means. So here's the question I guess: I'm finding that when you look at things modally... F min (dorian) is really Eb maj (and all it's related modes)... things become a good bit easier. You start thinking of everything as being major instead of: major here, natural minor there, diminished or half diminished here, so on and so on. You really just look at things as being major with alterations. Am I on the right track, or is there something wrong with this assumption? I mean, one thing that keeps running through my head is "scale substitutions": B minor is D major with (depending on the quality of minor) alterations. I mean, this is standard theory stuff, but is this how you guys are thinkking about it when you're playing? It makes sense to me, and it's making things easier. With Volume 24 Majors and Minors I'm essentially just practicing major scales everyday. I'm just learning to use those major scales in two different ways.

Brekelefuw

If you just play the related major scales when you improvise, it will probably become boring to the listener.
Also, when you get in to more complicated tunes, the chords won't always have a major scale to relate to. Learn all of your scales and which chords they apply to.
Also, playing a major scale over certain chord progressions just doesn't fit as well as playing the scale for the chord given. They composers use those chords for a reason.

df215

Hi there

I think you need to remember that modes are not a new invention in music. The are simple because they were one of the first forms of music to be written down, in monasteries etc. Miles etal. all used these ideas to create simplicity in improvisation, so yes it is MENT to be that simple. But I agree, the minor scales are written for a reason. And by getting them down it opens up a whole different load of variations on your solos that the audience will appreciate.

BradHarrison

That's a good way to understand unfamiliar theory at first but it's going to limit you in the long run. When you were learning your major scales, you probably learned that F major is a lot like C major, except you start on F and the B is flat. That worked for a while until you got used to F major. Now you don't think of it as "C major starting on F with a Bb"....you think of F major.

Eventually you're going to want to learn F dorian, rather than "Eb starting on F". It'll open you up to new ideas and understanding in the theory and improv. It's tedious at first, but no different than learning different major scales.

Also, as previously posted, you're soon going to run into scales and chords that don't relate to major keys as easily. The first time you see F7#11, you're going to have a tough time deciding if that's Bb major with a B natural(??) or C minor with a B natural(aka C jazz minor). You'll probably be much more comfortable in the long-run learning that lydian dominant is, how it works, and what sounds great over it.

note360

classical theory comes from the brain. Jazz theory comes from the chops and the heart and the soul.

I mean this is hwo it was explained to me. It is true to some degree because on alarge scale classical tehory is researched and proven much like science it is a science. It is theoretical to a large degree and it is great not putting it down. It too comes from the heart and soul. However, jazz theory is based onw what sounds good what feels good. and what you happen to play. I mean its the same stuff just a different way of doing it. Most jazz is done in the moment.

kctrump

Checkout Chase Sanborn's Jazz Tactics. CD or book.....both are very useful.

KCtrump

BergeronWannabe

Look here, so much great stuff!!
Jazz Theory

trpt2345

I disagree.There is absolutely no difference at all between F dorian and Eb Major starting on F. And especially with beginning improvisers it is silly to burden them with extraneous terminology. Abersold has become a millionaire by inventing complex terms for what is at bottom fairly simple concepts. All the major scales and minor scales and you're in. F7#11? Notes of the C melodic minor scale. Dmi7b5-G7b9? C harmonic minor. Then the diminished scale and you have 98% of what you need to know. It is much more important to learn the notes of the chords (at bottom there are only 48 chords-12 Major 7th, 12 minor 7th, twelve dominant 7ths and 12 half diminished or Mi7b5). These are the chords that occur "in nature" (built on scales). You can alter dominants, bu they can be accounted for in modes of the melodic minor.

Michael McLaughlin

wlrube

This attitude is a fine way to start out, but the more you improvise, the less you'll need it. It's like learning a new word. For instance, when you first learned the word "despicable," you probably just thought of it as a synonym of "bad," but now your vocabulary has grown and you can use the word "despicable" in a sentence without thinking about that. It's the same sort of thing with Eb major and F dorian. The more you use F dorian, the less you'll need to keep thinking about Eb major while you play it, and the more you'll be able to make music. Eventually if you keep going you'll be able to look at weird chord symbols like "C7#11" and "E half-diminished #2" and "F# altered" without taking that extra second to think about what major or minor scales they correspond to. (All of those correspond to G melodic minor, by the way.)

wlrube

Here's a nice little video illustrating how to approach learning a dorian scale (in this case G dorian) without thinking of it as "F major starting on G."

YouTube - Improv Video 1- Note Usage