Me no likey new jazz . . . - Page 3

NickD · 10-19-2009, 02:20 PM

Interesting thread! I can see some of the points.

FOR ME, if the music touches me, I like it. Some things said by some players touch me - move me in some way, and I love that. Chris Potter is an example. I LOVE his playing. He is technical, schooled and polished, but I hear structure and originality woven into the tapestry of sound he weaves. I can just loose myself in his stuff.

Does that fact make Chris Potter's playing good? Well, it's good for me. It might not be good for other folks, and that's cool, too! That doesn't make it bad. It just is what it is. It's all musical communication - expression - like an extemporaneous speech or conversation.

I guess if you don't like modern jazz, don't listen to it! There is some avant garde stuff I don't like (it doesn't move me) so I give it a pass. I have friends who love that stuff, and that's cool, too!

Good grief! I'm pontificating!

Ok, I'm done here! Cool thread. I'll need to keep an eye on this. There is stuff to learn.

Nick

derekkress · 10-19-2009, 02:42 PM

I dig artist's that get out there and try to play in different settings and with different people. I believe the artist that is doing that today is Roy Hargrove! He is living the life of a past musician (40,50,60's) but in our modern times. The fact he put out a Big Band album this year is something! I love his RH factor group, his quintet and the gig he did a few years ago with Herbie and the late Michael Brecker.

frankmike · 10-20-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsmonks

Guys can sure play like fiends these days, but I have to say that my attention tends to wander after about five minutes. There's a sameness to all that technique and precious little originality. I can't say that anything in recent years has really grabbed me.

Things fresh, raw and original really get my mojo going, and it's not that I've changed- it's that jazz seems to have been derailed by pseudo-jazz which, although it appears to be jazz and makes all the right noises, lacks something at its core.

Charlie Parker used to say, "More than two choruses and you're just practicing," but to my ear modern players seem stuck in that channel even before they've blown the first note.

Part of the problem seems to me to be the methodology itself. Sure, practicing and playing a lot of scales and arpeggios enables a player to gush and spew with great authority, but the gushing and spewing in itself, to my ear, smacks of gratuitous self-indulgence.

On the other end of the scale, however, those that economise tend to ring just as false in my ears, and their efforts smack of gimmickry rather than genuine creativity.

There was a lot of talk back in the 60's and 70's about Western Music's having come to its logical conclusion, that its forward progress had ended circa 1963, but that notion is obviously false, because to be true Western Society as a whole would have to be effectively brain-dead.

But the will or the effort does seem to have failed in the wake of much hand-wringing and navel-gazing.

Okay- me go put on body armour now. Say what you must; I can take it.

Can of worms is now officialy opened

First I completely agree, well, not completely but 75% of what you have written is true. Personaly I listen up to mid 60s, to be precise Mileses Berlin concert in 1964 is turning point.

I listen to Chet and Miles extensivly but only 50s and mid 60s, Chet was awesome in 50s and mid 60s, true genious, Miles also, infact all jazz was just awesome in 50s, just awesome, There is no greater joy than listening to Miles from 50s when he still played with Charlie Parker, He was awesome, just awesome, thats miles davis, not the one from bitches brew, although 90% of world population will remember that miles from bitches brew. shame.

infact I have a wacky theory about that all thing, I will write it here when I catch some free time

of modern jazz I appreciate Erik Truffaz a lot,

and from 70s and 80s MJQ was exceptional band

but seeing/hearing the likes of jamie cullum is just painfull, true horror

so that was lest say my general views.

now lets see more specific;

-solos, here lies the big problem, IMO back in the day there werent much books on how to improvise, you just did it. Today however musicians first read dozens of books and than go to improvise. That to me and my piano playing. And it took me a while to recover, Infact I still didnt recover. As I started trumpet late I took completely different approach and my improvisations on trumpet are much more genuine, are much more me, than my piano improvisations, but I didnt read a

Markie · 10-20-2009, 11:35 AM

Hi Monk,
Help me out.
You stated:
Part of the problem seems to me to be the methodology itself. Sure, practicing and playing a lot of scales and arpeggios enables a player to gush and spew with great authority, but the gushing and spewing in itself, to my ear, smacks of gratuitous self-indulgence.
-----------------
How would you structure a learning program for young people that would keep them from this?

vntgbrslvr · 10-20-2009, 12:26 PM

I think what he's saying is that it's not the quantity of the notes (even if they "work")....It's the quality of the notes, and the structure of how they're put together that separates the musical from the "noise".

derekkress · 10-20-2009, 01:43 PM

There is so much great music out there I'm not sure why you aren't entertained by today's jazz trumpet players? Maybe we can re-direct you if you are specific as to who you don't enjoy!

gsmonks · 10-20-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markie

Good point!
Hey!! I just thought of something that might help some struggling music major with their thesis paper, a topic!
Here goes:
As Musical Skill Level Increases On Recorded Medium Avalible to the Public, The Number Of Sales to the Public Goes Down.
AKA, "the better you are, the less you sell"

That would be an interesting study.

Q- How do you make a million dollars on a jazz album?

A- Spend two million!

Q- How do you make a jazz musicians' car more aerodynamic?

A- Take the pizza sign off the roof!

B-doom! Ksh!

derekkress · 10-20-2009, 08:16 PM

Find it sad that your post is so off topic!!! Very disrespectful to all artists who work so hard ! Please give up commenting!

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsmonks

Q- How do you make a million dollars on a jazz album?

A- Spend two million!

Q- How do you make a jazz musicians' car more aerodynamic?

A- Take the pizza sign off the roof!

B-doom! Ksh!

BergeronWannabe · 10-20-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankmike

infact I have a wacky theory about that all thing, I will write it here when I catch some free time

Can't wait to hear this...
To the OP- you are obviously listening to the wrong people!
Check out Ingrid Jensen, Tom Harrell, and Scott Wendholdt just to name a few
and get back to us.
Have fun,
-Andrew

frankmike · 10-21-2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BergeronWannabe

Can't wait to hear this...

-Andrew

well here is the shortened version:

well I think Miles decided to mock a bit with whis audience when he grow fed up with all that popularity (around 1963-1964). And IMO he suceeded. You see it is very posh to say; I listen to Miles, Miles was great etcetera. But what is so great about lets say Filels de Kilemanjaro? IMO nothing, do not get me wrong; but thats just random, plain radnom playing. IMO Miles left us lakmus paper, the musical indicator as his legacy.
For example someone says; I like Miles, you say; what about Miles do you like, and he says; I like Bitches Brew, than you instantly know he is musical analfabet, but if he says; I like how he plays 'round midnight with train on sax or autumn leaves with julan adderly, well than it is another story, than you will know he knows music. Thats my theory. And Miles motivation was to show that his public are ignorant bunch. I actually think he was annoyed with his public. Hell, he even played with his back turned to public. Awesome. The guy was just awesome. He mocked and enjoyed it, he was thinking; look at those foolish people here am I playing random BS and they are thinkink this is ultimate jazz, bwahahaha. And to be frank if you listen carefully to Mileses playing you will hear that bwahahaha malicios laugh coming from the trumpet.

Cheers mate, you were the best, definately the best. Hope I'll meet you in heaven one day.

10-19-2009, 02:20 PM	#21
NickD Forte User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago northern suburbs Posts: 1,049	Re: Me no likey new jazz . . . Interesting thread! I can see some of the points. FOR ME, if the music touches me, I like it. Some things said by some players touch me - move me in some way, and I love that. Chris Potter is an example. I LOVE his playing. He is technical, schooled and polished, but I hear structure and originality woven into the tapestry of sound he weaves. I can just loose myself in his stuff. Does that fact make Chris Potter's playing good? Well, it's good for me. It might not be good for other folks, and that's cool, too! That doesn't make it bad. It just is what it is. It's all musical communication - expression - like an extemporaneous speech or conversation. I guess if you don't like modern jazz, don't listen to it! There is some avant garde stuff I don't like (it doesn't move me) so I give it a pass. I have friends who love that stuff, and that's cool, too! Good grief! I'm pontificating! Ok, I'm done here! Cool thread. I'll need to keep an eye on this. There is stuff to learn. Nick __________________ NickD "Live Webcam Lessons Now Available with NickD" http://www.nickdrozdoff.com http://www.newyorktrumpetcompany.com http://www.myspace.com/nickdrozdoff

10-19-2009, 02:42 PM	#22
derekkress Pianissimo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montreal Qc Canada Posts: 172	Re: Me no likey new jazz . . . I dig artist's that get out there and try to play in different settings and with different people. I believe the artist that is doing that today is Roy Hargrove! He is living the life of a past musician (40,50,60's) but in our modern times. The fact he put out a Big Band album this year is something! I love his RH factor group, his quintet and the gig he did a few years ago with Herbie and the late Michael Brecker. __________________ Celebration Bflat by Flip Oakes Early Yamaha Flugel prototype(Guido Basso) GR and Stork mouthpieces

10-20-2009, 11:35 AM	#24
Markie Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Clarksburg, WV Posts: 734	Re: Me no likey new jazz . . . Hi Monk, Help me out. You stated: Part of the problem seems to me to be the methodology itself. Sure, practicing and playing a lot of scales and arpeggios enables a player to gush and spew with great authority, but the gushing and spewing in itself, to my ear, smacks of gratuitous self-indulgence. ----------------- How would you structure a learning program for young people that would keep them from this?

10-20-2009, 12:26 PM	#25
vntgbrslvr Pianissimo User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin Posts: 170	Re: Me no likey new jazz . . . I think what he's saying is that it's not the quantity of the notes (even if they "work")....It's the quality of the notes, and the structure of how they're put together that separates the musical from the "noise". __________________ Pan America Pea Shooter Conn Connquest 47 King Liberty Trumpet Bach Stratavarious (everyday horn) Yamaha TR-639 Rose bell 37 buescher Aristrocrat "custom built" Cornet Olds Studio (nickel plate) 57 conn 12A Coprion Holton Collegiate Cornet Conn Victor Cornet Conn 1914 Perfected wonder (C, B, A flat) Conn 1912 perfected wonder (C, B flat) Buescher 1903 Epoch Cornet 57 Olds Special Cornet Olds Ambassador Trumpet 1935 Mahillon Flugel Reynolds marching F

10-20-2009, 01:43 PM	#26
derekkress Pianissimo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montreal Qc Canada Posts: 172	Re: Me no likey new jazz . . . There is so much great music out there I'm not sure why you aren't entertained by today's jazz trumpet players? Maybe we can re-direct you if you are specific as to who you don't enjoy! __________________ Celebration Bflat by Flip Oakes Early Yamaha Flugel prototype(Guido Basso) GR and Stork mouthpieces

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