MUSICandCHARACTER

You did lay that back in the first 20 some seconds. The jazzy lick at the end seemed less laid back actually (I assume that was you playing there too).

Doesn't quite sound as "orchestral" to me. But then, that whole track is not my kind of music.

Jim

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slimshady

yeah. i don't know how else to describe the opening other than orchestral w/ the bells, tympani, bass drum, and what sound like bass. the brass section is just trumpets as i don't have any other intsruments to play.

the trumpet solo at the end was improvised...and you're right, its more on top of the beat. the effects on that part effect the timing to some extent as well.

i don't think many people would say that song is their style of music. its pretty different from most things i've ever heard. thats why i like it tho.

Bear

FLEEBAT!!!! Everyone knows that Bach was a Jazzer! Check out his fugues!!! I'm jesting with ya brother. I think if Bach was alive today, he would defintely be a jazzer though!...

Bear

fleebat

Bear,

No doubt about it! A really OLD jazzer! You may be too young to have seen it, but in the early days of Saturday Night Live, John Belushi did a bit where he was Beethoven, and slipped in and out of a Ray Charles persona. Pretty good bit.

Whatever Bach would be into (were he alive today), I'm sure he'd be FONKEY! Get a load of the threads and the "do" in those paintings!

RR

joetriscari

PSALT...I still agree with you...
I got a headache reading all the replies to this suject..lol
Joe Triscari

fleebat

Joe,

I'm still trying to figure out what PSalt was objecting to (I'm assuming he was objecting, in calling for Dave Bacon). As he didn't reply to my question about this, can you help me here?

I think we all considered it fun, civil & informative. Hope so!

Thanks, Rusty Russell

PS...
Maybe I owe you an aspirin!

Veldkamp

Fleebat, thank you for trying to write down your thoughts about timing and pitch. I'm enjoying them very much. Being a prof. (lead)trumpetplayer for 15 years now, including a lot of studio recordings with the Metropole Orchestra with arrangers like Bill Holman, Clayton, Mendoza etc. I see in your post many of the same idees I have about this subject.

I also believe that you can't explain these things to people who just don't hear them or don't want to hear them. If you can't hear the difference of timing between recordings of Mel Lewis or for instance Buddy Rich it is heard to explain things.

George Clinton was asked about the one of the beat. He explained that the one is a meter wide (holding his hands apart) and he played the one on 3/4 of the meter ! (excuse me for my bad english).

It all depends on the music and circumstances how you time and pitch notes. When I played with the Metropole Orchestra in the beginning of my leadplaying with them, I found out after hearing the tape back I was always to low on pitch. That's because the strings are always high in the pitch despite that everybody tunes before a recording on the same hobo (441hz) ! The result was that I sounded to flat on the high notes as if I could barely play them.

If I'm playing with a steady rhythmsection it's easier to relax on the timing issue than compared to a inconsistant rhythm section. That is if the drummer isn't playing like Buddy Rich and more like Mel Lewis.

About Cliffords timing and swing. Most of the time he didn't play triplet feel but straight 8's and gave a small accent on the 2nd and 4th 8 note.

If Hubbard plays quarter notes, it still feels like swing to me. His timing is/was often better then his rhythmsection IMHO.

I must say to Jim's defense that how he sees things probably works the best in his working situation and that how we (fleebat, psalt etc.) see things works the best in our musical environment. My feel is over the years, that the more experienced I get the more space I get or feel to time notes as I like it (that is with a good rhythm section, it's harder with a rhythm track).

nice thread btw.. :P

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Veldkamp

Off-topic, about laid back or layback.

Say you have to play 3 eight notes at the end of a bar. Mostly what happens is that the 1st eight note is played earlier. It's played as a 2nd 8 triplet of the 3rd beat followed by the 2nd eight note played as a quarter triplet on the 4th beat (or two tied 8note triplets) and the 3rd 8note as the last 8 triplet of the 4th beat.

So mostly this figure is played inside the bar, only when you play more laid back (or late in timing) it crosses the barline.

It's harder to explain in words then with a note example.

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psalt

Rusty, you've explained everything perfectly. This is the sort of stuff musically that separates the heavy hitters from the rest.
I tried to get Dave Bacon in on the debate as he not only knows what he is talking about, but has a real talent at raising the stakes.
Peter Salt

fleebat

psalt,

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. The brevity of your post (the one calling for Dave) somehow made me think that you were trying to get the moderator in here to shut us down or something, and I was afraid I'd unwittingly stepped on a rule or some toes or something.

(Hmm... brevity of post... gotta try that sometime!)

Veldkamp,

You're absolutely right (IMHO) about different things working in different situations. It's just as difficult to mesh if someone can't/won't straighten things out when it's called for as the other way around.

Jim made some great points, and as the exchange slogged on I kind of felt like I'd made a new online pal. What I kept hammering at was getting him to allow for the existance of a technique that he hadn't run into. I have to hand it to him; rather than just blow something off because he didn't agree with it or understand it, he talked about it offline with his wife, wrestled with it, and kept coming back (in respectful posts) to try and figure out what the others were talking about. Cool.

My theory on string players (see post about recording with them) is that when they're mostly used to playing in orchestral (or orchestra-sized) settings, they develop a habit of playing on top of the pitch in order to hear themselves or keep from getting lost in mush within such a big section. Playing on top really does have a "brightening" effect and makes you stand out; the opposite of playing "under" it.

BTW, what part of Holland are you in? I've played the Blues Estafette in Utrecht several times and toured your country a fair amount. What a GREAT way to run a country! What a COOL place! What wonderful people! I love it that nearly every tiny map-dot of a burg has a great "Music Centrum," a well-conceived hall dedicated to the performing arts. Downright inspirin'!
But that candy that's advertised as licorice and actually tastes like sea salt has got to go!

Best,
Rusty Russell