psalt

It's been my observation that as a generalization, the all time great studio players ( Gozzo Glow Findlay Faddis etc) play as low on the pitch as possible without playing flat and as back on the beat as possible without being late. Are there any opinions out there on time and pitch?
Peter Salt

joetriscari

I agree totally...I listened to both my uncles..Joe and Ray Triscari..
Audino, Porcino, Shew and Findley......All I believe did the same in that respect...
Joe Triscari

MUSICandCHARACTER

I understand what you are saying, but it sure sounds funny! As low as possible without being flat. Either you are on the pitch, or flat, or sharp! I think most good players (and singers) will error on the low side a move up if possible. Flat seems a bit more mellow and sharp more shrill, depending on the note and the chord.

As late a possible without being late? Either you are late or you are not. There is no try ... oops, slipped into movie lingo. Now my dad told me in high school: "If you are 10 seconds late it will be the same as if you were four hours late." One night I got in about 10 minutes late. I backed out of the driveway and came back 4 hours later. It wasn't long until my dad thought 10 minutes late was a lot better than 4 hours :)

Just the same, you are either on pitch or off, on the note timing, or not. I think precision has more to do with it. Bad players tend to be sharp and rush a lot.

Jim

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Dr. Jim Fox
Licensed Mental Health Therapist
Mouthpiece chart: www.ibowtie.com/tmptmpccharts.html

psalt

I don't feel that there are absolutes with time and pitch. For example, a unison trumpet line played very slightly not locked in produces a phase shifting kind of effect and in some situations this is pleasing to the ear. Also, playing slightly later on the beat can produce a kind of swaggering confidence that is musically desired.
Peter Salt

MUSICandCHARACTER

If there were no absolutes, how could you ever be off pitch be able to play "slightly later'? There are absolutes (as much as anything can be absolute) but that doesn't make the absolutes always the right thing to play.

If you are playing a jazz solo, playing with the pitch and timing is probably a good thing. If you play in a large ensemble, and you play late "with a swaggering confidence" you might get pitched on your nose (in the band I direct you would). Style is style and it has its place. But being out-of-tune and being off the beat is pretty much an absolute IMO.

Jim

__________________
Dr. Jim Fox
Licensed Mental Health Therapist
Mouthpiece chart: www.ibowtie.com/tmptmpccharts.html

slimshady

a lead player can sit back on the time, if the band as a unit has solid time...as if the lead is just floating on top. i think this sound might come from the ease in which those guys play when they are up there. it is also an effect to lay back on one line....as opposed to laying back on everything.

the pitch issue is a different story. i agree with MC...that you are intune or not in tune. typically the lead would be better off high on the pitch than flat. the best players are shooting for right on, not high or low...almost high or almost low. most importantly are u r intune with the other players.

CJDJazzTpt

Slimshady....

We aren't just talking about a lead player. We are talking about players in the studios. Yes, a lot of them are lead players...well all of them could be lead players. We are talking about the best of the best. The guys who you hear on movie soundtracks, TV, radio, etc,... They are all playing for the overall sound. Just because there is a 1st trumpet part doesnt actually make that player a lead player. In many cases it does but when recording for movie sountracks etc...they are all playing for the bigger cause. (unless there is a solo tpt part)

It is common practice for them to play back on the beat without actually playing late and as low on the pitch as possible without being flat. I would say that there arent absolutes when it comes to this. These guys are also known as red light players. When the red light is on, so are they! These guys can sight-read the music down and record on the very next take. Lots of times they are sightreading during the recording due to time and money issues.

The top call studio players are each as strong as the next. There is no room for error. I totally agree with PSalt. It produces a swaggering sound. It is very a very confident sound because each guy is playing exactly what is written. It takes the very highest of musicianship and skill to be able to do this. Imagine what it is like to be able to sightread anything perfectly (as close to perfectly as possible). We arent talking about big band playing because yes the lead player should play on top of the beat. In studio playing it is different.

slimshady

and what did that response have to do with me? i said nothing contrary to your remarks.

now i think what we all are trying to say is.....the studio guys nail the pitch and nail the time. duh...what would you expect. i know that for every one of them there is most likely or most definitely a slightly different approach. to say they all aim low on the pitch and lay the time back...hmm, i doubt it. have u stumbled across a big secret, no!

your ear is prolly telling you wow....they lay the time back and play low on the pitch because the majority of players we hear do play high on the pitch (not intune) and will rush the lines.

anyway, does it matter.....i mean yeah, if u play in tune, in time, with a huge beautiful sound and can sight read anything at any moment....u too can be a studio player....if you're lucky that is.

psalt

I played 1st trumpet in the studios for over 25 years.
Peter Salt

CJDJazzTpt

SlimShady...All I was saying was that you had mentioned something about a LEAD player and the band as a unit or something to that fact. I was merely saying that we are talking about Studio Greats and not just lead players. (sections as a whole)

Think about this.... what if there is no 'band'. Just a chart and a click track. Or even better if the rest of the band has already recorded their parts and there is just the trumpet section left to record. The general rule of thumb is to play low on the pitch and as back on the beat as possible without being late. If a section had to record over everything and its a quick 5 minute preview of the music and then record they just tend to lay back and play low on the pitch. SlimShady, I was not trying to insult your intelligence or make a personal statement towards you...I was merely trying to address your previous comment.

Anyway....Psalt gave his input and he played 1st tpt for 25 years in the studios so I take his comments as that of knowledge and not opinion. FWIW