Spitty

Hey folks,

I was hipped last night by the great guitarist/composer/educator Roni Ben-Hur to a new way (new to me that is) of using diminished chords over dom 7 progressions - especially when they are a fourth apart such as in the 2nd bar of "Lullaby of Birdland" (D7 / G7 /) (concert) - it sounds quite nice to play a dimished chord from either the 3rd, 5th, b7 or b9 of the first chord and then a half step down from whichever note you started on, play another diminished chord-that will be the diminished for the next chord, in this example, G7. You can then resolve nicely to the next chord which is Cm7 (3rd bar of "Lullaby . . .").

Can any of the experienced jazz players here comment on this? And perhaps let us know if you use this concept and maybe some other concepts that have grown out of this and/or are related to this?

Cheers,
Spitty

Ari

It basically just a Dominant b9 without the root. Not very dissonant, especially when your in minor (all notes are diatonic within harmonic minor). In major though, it sounds more "surprising", and has a more a jazz-feel to it. Check out Miles solo on "walkin", and how he uses diminshed and augmented arpeggios in a blues context.

trpt2345

Another Miles solo that uses a lot of diminished scale stuff is Straight No Chaser from Milestones.

Michael McLaughlin

The absent are never without fault, nor the present without excuse.
Benjamin Franklin

Fred

Diminished chords can also subsitute dominant chords.
If we take an example. Here's a common (I - VI - ii - V) cadence:

| CMaj7 ¦ A7 | Dmin7 ¦ G7 |

You can subsitute the A7 (wich is the dominant chord of Dmin7) by a C#°7 chord:

| CMaj7 ¦ C#°7 | Dmin7 ¦ G7 |

it gives an elegant chromatism in the bass line.

On this C#°7, you can play the same scale as you would play on the A7: that's D minor harmonic scale: D E F G A Bb C# (in our case if you start from the root C#: C# D E F G A Bb)

You can also play a diminished scale (which is "less tonal" than the first one): C# D# E F# G A Bb C.

Fred

Fred

If you take not only the ninth, but all of the chords extensions (upperstructure): 9, 11, 13.
You can look at a chord as two chords superimposed.

Let's take an example: consider a C13(#11): C E G Bb D F# A.
That is equivalent to a D triad over a C7. Thinking about the D triad can give you different ideas for improvisation.

Fred

Ari

And of course diminished arpeggio over G7 (B diminshed).

Other substitutions for G7:

G7(#5) arpeggio
C#7 arpeggio (tritone-substitution)




There are also alot of cool pentatonics to use over chords, f.ex

E minor pentatonic over Cmaj7

this gives you E G A H D (scale degree from Cmaj7: 3 5 13 7 9 <- all pretty notes)

Deecy

Interesting thread, Fred. When I first studied tritone substitution my teacher kept pounding at me that "thirds become sevenths and sevenths become thirds". One day the light went on and I understood. Invented by Paganini BTW, Contemporaries envious of his skills called it "the Devil's interval".
I use the "triad above the dom 7th all the time; it's great inverted, played down to the seventh of the dominant and up a whole tone for a finish.
If you want to hear some really great use of extended chords, tritone substitutions and polytones, in addition to Bird take a listen to anything Buddy DeFranco recorded in the last 30 years. He's really way out there!
I'm tuned in well enough to hear the tritones and his use of extended chords but I've never figured out what polytones are. He certainly does not give voice to 2 notes at the same time so that's not it.

Ari

It appears in late Beethoven, and after that, I believe.