DLP08

Hey everyone, I'll make this short and sweet. I had the pleasure of taking lessons from an amazing guy. This guy had me switch mouthpieces from my 14A4A to a 3C. He told me you can do anything with a deeper cup that you can with a shallower cup, it will just take more practice...but the end result will be favorable.

I play on a 3C and my range and flexibility are both decent. My range is low as a strong pedal B and a strong high F. After the F it gets weaker and I'm working on it, but I can get out a triple A a bit quieter and squeak a triple C occasionally , though I will never play one as of yet..it DOES sound pretty bad and I admit it, but I'm working.

Anyways, I'm beginning to drift off topic. I played on a 6A4A just for fun the other day and the sound that I got was the cutting sound that I had always dreamed of! Also, my flexibility increased by an extreme amount. I tried my luck at the lower range and while it was not as strong, I believe it will be easy to work on.

So my question is, what would be the pros and cons for and against a shallower mouthpiece? The basis of all my studying comes from the Vizzutti books, and he plays on a shallow mouthpiece, so how bad can it be?

I also hear of bottoming out and would like to hear exactly what this means. I know I have experienced it but I can't provide an explanation as to what it is or why it happens.

For the - Too Long Didn't Read Version -

1. My desired sound was accomplished through a shallower mouthpiece. What are the pros and cons of switching to a shallower mouthpiece?

2. What is bottoming out?

Thanks,

David

DLP08

I apologize for the double post as well as the terrible lack of paragraphs. I don't know what's going on with my computer as of right now :) Hang with me while I figure it out!

rowuk

David,
only someone in FRONT of the trumpet can tell you what you sound like.
A 6A4A does not give you a lot of room to work with and very little chance to develop a "fat" sound.
If you are determined to be the next lead player for Tower of Power, then you are on the right track. For just about all other types of playing, you are limiting the palette of colors available to only the very bright ones.

Al Vizzutti is one of the finest trumpet players on the planet. His face, background and quantity of practicing make playing on his mouthpiece possible. That mouthpiece has a rim size similar to a Bach 3 (Yamaha/Schilke 15) and a shallow cup. Considering that he is doing his soloist thing, he can have any sound that he wants. If he was sitting in a section somewhere, without a microphone, his choice would surely be different.

spitvalvejr6

I played on a 6A4A for a year. i loved it. BUT mouthpieces are not going to do they same for one person that they do for the other. I have never had problems bottoming out with a any mouthpiece. I play on an even shalower Monette Bl6 and still have no problems bottoming out. I find that with a deeper mouthpiece your sound is def. fuller but it depends on what you want to play. For lead work in a big band or small combo then yeah a shallower mouthpiece wont hurt you. Bugle corps are another story.

mctrumpet

Haha he used my 6A4a. sorry about going off topic i just thought i would say that

screamingmorris

"I also hear of bottoming out and would like to hear exactly what this means."

I don't think anyone answered that part of your post.

"Bottoming out" simply means that your lip is touching the inside of the cup somewhere and that is interfering with the air flow and / or stopping your lips from vibrating.

Your lip might touch the inside of the cup near the rim, or your lip might touch the inside of the cup near the throat, depending on the shape of the cup and depending on your mouthpiece / lip positioning.

Your lip might be just barely touching the inside of the cup, in which case your lip still vibrates but the air flow is severely interfered with.
Or your lip might touch the inside of the cup so hard that the lip stops vibrating.

Different players have lips which protrude into the cup to different degrees, so one player might play well with a particular mouthpiece while another player bottoms out on that same mouthpiece.
That can be due to differences in embouchure types, differences in how fleshy the lips are, and how much mouthpiece pressure is used.

Players such as myself cannot use extremely shallow mouthpieces because we bottom out easily.
To use the shallowest mouthpiece possible some of us use a cup would has a steep drop-off from rim into cup: shaped like a "U".
Our lips tend to touch the cup near the rim if we use cups which have a shallow drop-off from rim into cup: shaped more like "V".
We can use a "V" cup as long as it is a deep "V".
But when we get into very shallow cups the cup must be shaped more like "U" so that our lips don't touch that shallow area of the cup near the rim.
Example, the Schilke 14A4A is really not very shallow, but I have trouble playing it because the cup shape is more "V" and my lip brushes against the cup near the rim just enough to interfere with air flow.

Another factor: I was surpised that I was able to play a Wick 4E even though it is very shallow.
I finally noticed that Wick put a very small second cup at the throat, making that part of the cup near the throat silghtly deeper, which was keeping my lip from touching the cup near the throat.
Without that second little cup added near the throat I would probably have bottomed out on the Wick 4E.

Also, if you are using the shallowest mouthpiece for your type, you might bottom out on it when you are not warmed up because your lips are flabby and protruding into the cup slightly more.
But after warming up you might find that you are no longer bottoming out on that cup because your lips are less flabby and thus not protruding into the cup as much.
So when checking to see if a shallow mouthpiece is too shallow for you and might cause bottoming out, it is important to try the mouthpiece after you are properly warmed up.

Hope this long-winded explanation helps.

- Morris

Solar Bell

You don't say what kind of music you play...or how old you are, but if you are getting the sound you always dreamed of, go for it.

I played 25 years on a Jet Tone Bill Chase mouthpiece. I now play on a GR model that is a copy of a Jet Tone Bill Chase.

I have a big fat sound, from low F# up to high G.

It depends on your lips and what you are comfortable with.

I play lead, and I am comfortable at the end of a four hour gig.

If Berigan's "I Can't Get Started", or Harry James' "Cherry" comes up in the 4th set I am just as good at the bottom of the horn as in the upper register.

If the 6A4a works and that is the sound you want to hear...keep it.

-cw-

Ljazztrm

Listen to Chuck! He's giving some fantastic advice here. If your lower range isn't as strong on the 6a4a, try a 6a4, or order a 6a4 top from Kanstul and dial in some Warburton backbores with it. The last 'a' on the Schilke mouthpiece is the backbore and the 'a' backbore is very tight.
I work as a freelance player and have to play all different types of gigs. Also, creatively speaking, I play a lot of flugelhorn. For me, I always found the most efficient solution was to always have the same rim on my face and change everything underneath. I have the same chops on my 5C Bill Ratzenberger jet-tone as I do on my super deep Mark Curry/Flip Oakes WT flugel piece...I have the same rim on each piece. I think it was Dave Hickman who said you should have at least three different mouthpieces you play for different types of work...and I think he also advocates having the same rim on each. All the best, Lex.

BergeronWannabe

Didn't Vizzutti say play on the smallest/shallowest piece you
can and get a good sound?
I think once you find the rim that feels best, you can go from
there. At least, that's the way it was for me...I found the GR
size and the rims are identical- just different cups. Use the right
tool for the job.

mrmusicnotes

If a super bright sound is all you are interested in,then I guess a small shallow piece is all you need.If you have a fairly robust embouchure you may have a problem with that 6a4a after playing it for an extended period of time with swelling and eventually bottoming out.I hope what ever you choose works out,but I really like what that 'AMAZING TEACHER"recommended.