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Mouthpieces / Mutes / Other Discuss Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe in the Equipment forums; I have a question reguarding the differences between the 25 and 43 leadpipes. I do know that I prefer the ...
  1. #1
    GFF
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    Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    I have a question reguarding the differences between the 25 and 43 leadpipes. I do know that I prefer the sound of one or the other on certain horns. The first question is, what is the physical difference between the pipes i.e. how they taper etc? The second is, I have a young student who is looking at a model 72 with a 43 reverse leadpipe on ebay so, I haven't heard them play it but I've always prefered the 25 reverse leadpipe on that horn, any thoughts? Thanks for your imput.

    GFF

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    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    It is different for everybody. here is what Bach claims:
    B Trumpet Mouthpipes
    25 (Standard): Some resistance, effective in centering or tying together tone production.
    25-O (Standard XL bore and LT180-72): More open and free-blowing, less restrictive than 25.
    6: Slightly more restrictive than 25.
    7: Darker tone, more free-blowing than 25.
    43: More open feeling with less resistance and more flexibility than 25. Brighter sound.
    44: Brighter sounding than 43 for more flexible tone placement.
    25LR (Standard LR series): Reversed construction, longer form of 25 with less resistance.
    43LR: Reversed construction, longer form of 43 with less resistance.

    I hope your student has excellent breath support. If not, a strad is more of a liability than an asset.

    I will not recommend horns to students unless I play them first. The parents are also told to check with me before trying to do the kids any favors!

    Student horns are easy to play, in tune with little effort and are durable. Pro horns have sound as the top design parameter. That makes them more work for weak players. They also are not as tough.
    Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

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    Re: Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    In my opinion, the 43 leadpipe makes the slotting wider. I like this feel, others may not.I've owned numerous Bachs, and have always had a 43 installed no matter what configuration of bell and weight I had. IMHO the 43 is not a drastic change from the 25 on an ML horn. If you put one on the L bore (.462), IMHO it is overkill. I did that once.
    The LR will be a bit different than the standard leadpipe also.

    Pete
    Pete Grimaldi

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    Re: Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    It is different for everybody. here is what Bach claims:
    B Trumpet Mouthpipes
    25 (Standard): Some resistance, effective in centering or tying together tone production.
    25-O (Standard XL bore and LT180-72): More open and free-blowing, less restrictive than 25.
    6: Slightly more restrictive than 25.
    7: Darker tone, more free-blowing than 25.
    43: More open feeling with less resistance and more flexibility than 25. Brighter sound.
    44: Brighter sounding than 43 for more flexible tone placement.
    25LR (Standard LR series): Reversed construction, longer form of 25 with less resistance.
    43LR: Reversed construction, longer form of 43 with less resistance.

    I hope your student has excellent breath support. If not, a strad is more of a liability than an asset.

    I will not recommend horns to students unless I play them first. The parents are also told to check with me before trying to do the kids any favors!

    Student horns are easy to play, in tune with little effort and are durable. Pro horns have sound as the top design parameter. That makes them more work for weak players. They also are not as tough.
    Your knowledge of trumpet technology is amazing. I'm hoping you can help me with an answer to my question. I own a Bach Strad 180S - Lite-43taper bell - standard leadpipe. I have a good range from pedals to G above high C. However, I push a lot of air in the high range. When I get to the E,F,G The sound starts closing wavering until it finally opens crashing through. Seems like I'm forcing too much. (understatement) Not using a ton of pressure on the chops. I'm trying to keep similar position and pressure in the high range. yet my facial muscles around the mouth are very tight. Am wondering if I just need more practice ( probably) over time or would a change of leadpipe help make a difference? I like the feel of some resistence. I hate the feeling of falling into the horn. Suggestions?
    Oldfriendofmine
    =====================
    Bach Strad lightweight 72 trumpet
    Yamaha YFH-631G flugelhorn
    Schilke 11

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    Forte User Al Innella's Avatar
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    Re: Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    Your over tensing your embouchure as your going higher, try to relax your body a little more , as you play higher the overtones actually get closer so it takes less lip movement to move from note to note than it does an octave lower, most of us were taught that high notes were hard to play so we tense up as if we were lifting a heavy weight and do them harder to play, try practicing high long tones ,slurs and scales very softly ppp, on the long tones start the note very soft then crescendo to a forte the decrescendo back to ppp, think of breath support and centering the note. I play on a Bach 43 lightweight and have no problem playing to double C and above.

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    Moderator Utimate User rowuk's Avatar
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    Re: Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfriendofmine View Post
    Your knowledge of trumpet technology is amazing. I'm hoping you can help me with an answer to my question. I own a Bach Strad 180S - Lite-43taper bell - standard leadpipe. I have a good range from pedals to G above high C. However, I push a lot of air in the high range. When I get to the E,F,G The sound starts closing wavering until it finally opens crashing through. Seems like I'm forcing too much. (understatement) Not using a ton of pressure on the chops. I'm trying to keep similar position and pressure in the high range. yet my facial muscles around the mouth are very tight. Am wondering if I just need more practice ( probably) over time or would a change of leadpipe help make a difference? I like the feel of some resistence. I hate the feeling of falling into the horn. Suggestions?
    How does one "push a lot of air" in the stratosphere? The horn does not "pass" a lot of air up there due to its design.
    Al is right on target by recommending a "lower impact" approach. I find it useful to find the point of diminishing returns. See how much you can back off and still get the same output. It works. The trumpet in its most efficient state would pass almost no air at all. We couldn't play a horn like that as we would suffocate. To help with this, deliberate inefficiencies are built in. We just need to find that balance between body and horn. The rest is actually quite easy.

    Changing the leadpipe changes NOTHING. The smallest opening in the entire playing system is your embouchure. Once that is mature, the horn is practically secondary!
    Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

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    Re: Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    Well...Seems like both Al and Rowuk are correct. I took a lesson today and my teacher just gave me the same advice. Relax...keep working high register, keep working pedals, keep playing Clarke and Colin. Work on my breathing - From a Yoga point of view - and filling air into the lungs from the bottom up. In order to relax the facial muscles he's given me some additional isometric facial muscle exercises. ( 1. Slowly roll a ball of air, inside the cheeks, while breathing through the nose, from side to side...Very slowly in control. 10 times on each side. After all the warmup...I get to play some music. Getting to be a good trumpet player is a long process. ( By the way, my teacher told me to stop looking for horns and options. Keep practicing!)
    Oldfriendofmine
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    Bach Strad lightweight 72 trumpet
    Yamaha YFH-631G flugelhorn
    Schilke 11

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    Forte User Bob Grier's Avatar
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    Re: Bach #25 vs. #43 leadpipe

    Quote Originally Posted by GFF View Post
    I have a question reguarding the differences between the 25 and 43 leadpipes. I do know that I prefer the sound of one or the other on certain horns. The first question is, what is the physical difference between the pipes i.e. how they taper etc? The second is, I have a young student who is looking at a model 72 with a 43 reverse leadpipe on ebay so, I haven't heard them play it but I've always prefered the 25 reverse leadpipe on that horn, any thoughts? Thanks for your imput.

    GFF
    The 43 leadpipe is the most open of the Bach leadpipes. The 72 bell is the largest bell they make. They both require a well developed embouchure and air contol. I would not recommend this for a student or even an average college level player.
    Bob Grier, An Old Pro
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