qazaq

I know, I know, there is no "magic piece" that will solve all my problems...but I think I want something different than the ZeuS F2 I am playing on right now...

I went by the Warburton stand at the State Music Convention, and I figured out that I am looking for something with a bach 5C, 6C, or 6D rim and cup (can't buy a Warburton, too much $) BUT I want something with a freer blowing backbore... any ideas? I like jazz, but I don't want the Louis Armstrong sound. BUT right now, the piece I have gives me too many overtones...it isn't very clean, not matter what I do with my mouth.

So any ideas where I might find a larger backbore than a bach?

By the way, I may have my facts wrong. I tried the 5 (star) backbore at the warburton stand... That is freer blowing than a Bach piece, right?

So shilke? Yamaha? Reeves? Should I just go ahead and get the Bach, and not worry about it?

edit/
sorry for the misplaced thread...didn't quite notice this board. Didn't exactly look around too much for it either though...

rowuk

First you have to forget all of the BS that is fed trumpet players about what makes a mouthpiece work. A bigger backbore or throat does not necessarily make a mouthpiece/horn combination more free blowing or darker. It can really mess up the intonation and high range playability though! Check this link out:
Welcome at the pages of the IWK (Institute of Musical Acoustics) then click on research, then mouthpiece forms. THAT is what happens when you change parameters. It would slow down many mouthpiece safaris if the players checked out the real poop first!

Freer blowing is very often something that involves your body and not the hardware. The ZeusF2 is not a "standard" mouthpiece. Do you have a friend with a Bach 1 1/4C or 3C. Try and find one play it and post again with your results. Maybe we need to give you some breathing and not mouthpiece advice!

Dale Proctor

I'll throw my 2 cents in here.....I switched from a Bach 3C (played it for years) to a Bach 6BM about 6 months ago and I really like it. It's sort of an oddball Bach piece, with a deep B cup, 26 throat, and 24 "symphonic" backbore. I get a very nice sound with it, more rich than the somewhat shallow 3C, and the intonation and range are great on it. It's like buying a custom piece for a standard Bach mp price, so while you're looking at 5 and 6-sized mouthpieces, give one a try.

Of course, your mileage may vary, but for me and my 43 Strad, the 6BM is a great mouthpiece.

qazaq

I have always heard that high-range and intonaton are not something that is decided by a mouthpiece...in fact very few things are decided by the mouthpiece, although it makes things easier to do. If I wanted range and great high register volume and tone, I would go get me a Shilke 6a4a or something similar... I might just pull out my double-cupped Stage 1 piece...

I guess what I want out of the backbore is a larger hole to put my air through. The more air, the better sound, right? And I think a slightly shallower cup may solve my overtone problem... looking for clarity, but beauty. Of coure, a larger backbore would present some problems right when I get it...I might feel like I am not pushing enough air, but I want to be able to overcome that. I am not looking for a "cheater" mouthpiece, I am looking for something that will give me room to grow.

I'll have to go to the store to try out different mouthpieces... none of my friends have anything I want to try...a bunch of tiny shilkes or Bach 7Cs...
I play on a very deep cup now...but I think I am looking for something shallower. I need flexibility, response, and clarity. I may end up on a D cup, but I'll definitely try the 6BM...the 6 rim is what I was looking at anyway...


I would also like to look at some V pieces... I am not very knowledgable about anything oddball (strange, considering my equipment), so does anyone know of any manufacturers who make V pieces that I could find at a local Swicegood?

Also, has anyone ever seen a chart or table or something that gives the characteristics of each type of mouthpiece, and their equivalent to other brands? I have trouble converting American standard measurement to metric, much less converting the different labeling systems...

Dale Proctor

Go to this site and click on the box with the calipers (the "specs hub"). There are numerous catalog downloads and comparison charts there.

Mouthpiece Express : Brass & Woodwind Mouthpieces

qazaq

GREAT resource, thanks Dale.... Now I have something to compare actual widths, rather than just a bunch of arbitrarily named numbers and letters...

Dale Proctor

Good luck with the search. Here's another resource, but you'll have to decipher what the abbreviations are (i.e. B is Bach, BNY is Bach New York, S is Schilke, and so on). Since these scans are of individual mouthpieces, they may not be too accurate when generalizing.......it's as they say, for entertainment purposes only......

Compare Mouthpieces

rowuk

This is exactly what DOESN'T happen. If we were pouring water through the mouthpiece, you would be right, but music is like AC not DC. That means boring out the throat does not give you a freer blow, but DOES reduce the efficiency of the mouthpiece/horn and makes the slotting fuzzier! The throat and the backbore need to be optimized and you ALWAYS have to trade off characteristics when modifying a mouthpiece!

The less air the better the sound!. Before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain: a clear sound efficiently played requires a small but strong aperature. Less air goes through the hole because the horn is doing the work, not brute force playing. We still have to take a deep breath to put a large volume of air behind the lips. That air just does not disappear when playing correctly! Your air should also not be rammed through the mp!
The Kanstul Comparator and there is also a table at the Monette site. The information will not really help you solve your problem, only playing will.

oldlou

I have a reservation about defining "better tone". In my opinion some overtones simply make the sound "come alive", rather than being just a dead single tone. On this subject, we are trying to make a single type of sound be the ideal for everyone. I guess that what I am trying,( rather poorly ), to say is something akin to the old statement that," beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Every mans taste in his choice of food, booze, or women is different. The French have a famous statement pertaining to that. "Vive la differance" . I do love a 'lively' tone.


OLDLOU>>

qazaq

If I were to play in an orchestra or concert band, and played a lot of concert solos, (or cared about playing concert solos), I would love the overtones and the mellow sound it provides.

But the mouthpiece I have now just has too much for my preference, and purpose. When I want overtones, I'll get me a flugelhorn.

I read this very same material in Chase Sanborn's Brass Tactics and I agree completely... but I think the basic essence of what you're saying is that the cup, backbore, lungs, and embouchure must work in the most efficient manner possible to produce the clearest sound, with the least amount of air provided.

Problem for me, is that I am producing more air than my piece can handle, at least for my taste. I don't really know what the specs are on it, as Zeus doesn't release that information... all I know is that it is extremely deep and not really that wide. And it is not clear, while when I play on a shallower, wider, more "free-blowing" peice, the clearness problem dissappears, and making it easier to do things like lip trills and whatever, while still retaining a clear, "trumpety" sound. And by shallower and wider, I mean Bach 5C-6D (do they make 6 widths with D cups?) type cup and rim.

At least that's what the Warburton chart said.

I may end up changing my embouchure and fixing the problem altogether...I don't want to end up with the classic "tiny mouthpeice" scenario, where you go to the store and scream on a tiny shilke and 3 days later, your range is the same as it was before the new peice, and your mid-range sound is terrible... I don't think I will go spend any money until I work on a uniform warm-up routine and method book practice. Maybe that will solve the problem...