billyhutch

Hi everyone.

Before ordering my set of NiViBri inserts from WWBW for my Strad I had just suspected it could happen, cause I had read about people worried on how to remove the insert once pushed in the trumpet but I didn't expect I would have faced such a hassle.

When I got the inserts, I pulled out the main tuning slide, I polished and greased the leadpipe internally. Then I put the insert pushing it lightly with the slide. It went in easily for 3/4 the way lenght, then it stopped. I hadn't forced at all, but by no snake nor other artful practice I could get it out.

After giving up the idea to remove it by myself I brought the horn to a brass repairman living not far. He tried but, since he didn't want to damage the horn, he suggested me another repairman (I think the best in my country for what concerning brass). Unfortunately living not so close to me. This last one, in about 45 minutes and after lots of swearwords, managed to remove it.

The resulting balance is:

- $34.99 + shipping to buy;
- $40.00 to repair (remove);
- $70.00 in fuel and toll fee;
- a day-off work;
- about 2 weeks I couldn't play the instrument;
- I won't ever try again to put the inserts in.

Probably I was the most luckless person since those inserts have been patented/merchandized and I can't say if they work or not.
However I think that the risk can't even match the eventual benefits they can bring.

Just a personal opinion.
Regards,
Billy

jcstites

Is it possible they sent you the wrong size?

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rowuk

Sorry about this but the technical explanation on these things is nothing but HOGWASH. All these things do is make the effective bore of the horn SMALLER.
The speed of the air in the horn would not allow for much change in "turbulence" in the horn. Measure your breathing volume and then divide that by the time it takes for you to run out of air then you will see what I mean.
The snake oil vendors imply that the air you blow through the horn projects and bounces off of the back wall. That is plain BS. If you have a brass player that smokes, have them take a puff and then start playing. At least 20-30 seconds before ANY smoke comes out of the bell. The speed of sound is NOT the speed of your air. Soundwaves propagate like dominos, one particle hits the next and that starts a chain reaction. The air particle only needs to excite the next one for sound to work!
Air needs to move through the horn so that the people playing can expel their air in a reasonable amount of time to keep from suffocating as well as getting the lips to vibrate. The more efficiently you play, the more sound you get for the air quantity applied.
Forget high speed aerodynamics inside the trumpet. That is something for snake oil vendors to ponder about!

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

billyhutch

The size could not be wrong. Or, at least, on WWBW there was no choice so I obviously thought it was ML (as it's largely more common than L). Moreover I think that if it had been L size I wouldn't even manage to put the insert inside.

Rowuk, I don't know if the technical explanation is correct or not, but when I ordered the inserts I thought they would deserve a try. Also because more than a brand tried to meet this need (Bach and Schilke reverse leadpipes).

Unfortunately my curiousness became so expensive!

rowuk

Billy,
we are all looking for ways to improve our hardware in hopes that our playing will get better. That is what the whole industry is based on: belief that one product is better than the next.
It is clear to me that the designers of professional trumpets have certain things in mind and that the after-market pimpers also have an agenda.
You are right though, the tuning slide receiver SHOULD be cylindrical and if the insert fits at all, it should go all the way in. The fact that it did not shows that your tuning slide was NOT cylindrical or had some oxidation that kept this from fitting properly.
I still maintain that the technical premise is BS. Turbulence is not the issue, bore size is - especially in the leadpipe.

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

tatakata

I thing its a scam as well. And how are you supposed to adjust your tuning slide in the middle of a gig. What if you are a bit flat. How do you push in?

billyhutch

The conductor use to tune the orchestra just before the concert and I never needed to move the slide then. And I usually play the same length out, so it wouldn't be a problem for me. However I got what you mean and I agree it's surely uneasy to handle!

Bear

Now, if you would've spent that $150 on a few lessons with a great trumpet teacher/player.... hmmm.. HA. I hear ya man, I've been through the gimmick phase too. Just realize that only you can make you sound better, not additions to the axe.

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Brian H. Smout

Hello All,

I can only say that I have used the NiViBri inserts and got one stuck as per the original post. I tried using a tool I received from Jason Harrelson but to no avail. It was a .45 cal pistol cleaning brush soldered to a T handle. My tech, a good Christian man, probably had his faith or at least his ability not to use profanity tested while removing the insert.

I asked the tech who cleaned and aligned my Benge trumpets about inserts and he stated that he had tried them back in the '70's and made be a set. I find that they tend to make me feel that my centre of sound has moved forward, if that makes any sense to you. This allows me to hear myself a bit differently. I prefer the horn with the inserts in btw.

As for trumpet voodoo and pimping, well, why not try it if it is not outrageously expensive or silly. I understand Rowuk's analogy about air movement but would counter by asking why bother cleaning our horns or worrying about red rot in the leadpipe if turbulence does not matter or that the airspeed within the instrument is a non factor?
My $.02,

Brian

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"Swift Current - where we're neither swift nor current"

rowuk

Brian,
the issue is not turbulence. Dirty horns have a smaller bore and that changes a lot. Gunk can also reduce the resonance at certain positions in the horn! Red rot does not make the horn play worse until you have a hole.

There is NOTHING wrong with pimping your horn. There is obviously also nothing wrong with misleading or downright lies in an advertisement.
I have no trouble with any of the after market additions - as long as nobody starts BS about the effects. The physics are very clear, but obviously not enough for the marketing people!
Even if a pimp works, it would be cool to get told the real reason!

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.