maynardthe2nd

Hi, i've been doing mouthpiece testings for LOUD with my private instructor, and havn't been getting what i should out of them. The shallow cup should be increasing my range, should it not? But it's decreasing it. Can anyone give me some advice on how to play on new mouthpieces, and to get the best out of them?

Solar Bell

This thread MIGHT be helpful...

http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f134...out-38047.html (6A4A, 3C, and Bottoming out)


-cw-

PSH

I have no experience with LOUD mouthpieces, however I do know this: the shallow cup will not increase your range. It will brighten your sound. A brighter sound tends to cut through more easily, making you have to work less to project over the band. The thing that will increase your range is hours in the practice room. There is no magic mouthpiece...

Patric_Bernard

Amen

screamingmorris

How many high-note specialists could play Triple C's on a deep Bach 1 mouthpiece?
Even if you cite the few who could do it on a Bach 3C, a Bach 3C is about the same cup depth as the *piccolo* trumpet mouthpiece 7E, except the Bach 3C is somewhat even shallower than the Bach 7E near the rim, more "V" shaped than the "U" shaped Bach 7E.

A shallow mouthpiece *should* indeed extend range to some degree,
while it should also brighten tone and extend endurance in the upper register.

Just read all of the testimonials from people who have tried extra-deep mouthpieces such as the Curry TF mouthpieces and the Yamaha short-shank cornet mouthpieces.
They routinely say that with such extra-deep mouthpieces it is a real challenge to play above the staff, although they find it easy to play High C's and above on shallower mouthpieces.

It is true that a shallow mouthpiece will not automatically give a high register to a person who did not already have one.
A shallow mouthpiece is no substitute for embouchure development.
But a shallow mouthpiece should give the player 1/3 of an octave advantage over a much deeper mouthpiece.

Using an extra-deep Yamaha 13E4 I have trouble getting above the staff.
Using a Weril W46 which is slightly shallower than a Bach 7E I can play an octave higher, blasting out High F's and High G's that neighbors can hear a block away even though I have my windows closed.
You might say, "I know some people who can play Double C's on a Bach 7C".
Yeah, and they could be playing Triple C's all night long if they used a shallower mouthpiece.

A shallow mouthpiece does not really "give" anything because the player must already have worked his butt off developing an embouchure that is capable of playing high notes.
But a shallow mouthpiece will make those high notes much easier to play, while a deeper mouthpiece will fight against the player every step of the way.

"The thing that will increase your range is hours in the practice room."
When I was a kid I spent many years playing a terrible Bach 7C, but I always hit a ceiling with a weak High C. No amount of practice could get me above that ceiling.
I finally broke through that ceiling when I abandoned that Bach 7C for a shallower one.
What mouthpiece is best for a player varies from player to player.
But a player can devote thousands of hours to practice and still have terrible range if he is playing a mouthpiece that fights against him rather than works for him.
When it comes to the upper register, a deep cup will fight against you while a shallow cup will work with you.

That is a matter of simple physics, because the shorter distance inside a shallow cup reinforces higher frequencies, just as the shorter strings in a piano reinforce higher frequencies.
Experiment:
Blow across the top of a glass soda pop bottle when it is 2/3 full and you will get a high frequency.
Blow across the top of that same glass soda pop bottle again when it is only 1/2 full and you will get a lower frequency, because you now have a deeper air space "cup" inside the bottle. If you try real hard you can get a high note again when the bottle is 1/2 full, but the bottle will really be fighting against you on that high note.

- Morris

maynardthe2nd

Okay, well that's something i was asking, i had the misconception that shallower mouthpieces will increase your range, and i was confirming if i had it wrong or right. I'm not interested in getting shallower mouthpieces, i'm just testing them. I'm quite content with the strong Double C that I possess with my 3C, i don't need a cheater.

rowuk

Morris,
the comparison doesn't hold up. The difference in inner rim size is only a couple of % from big to small mouthpieces, not factor 5 or 6 like piano strings. The difference in cup depth MAY be 50-60%, but even that is not significant.

Range is governed ONLY by the ability of the lips to vibrate quickly and that has little to do with the mouthpiece. It has to do with the embouchure. The reason that many large mouthpiece players "struggle" with the upper register has to do with the condition of their embouchure that they let "relax" into the cup increasing lip mass which reduces the ability to vibrate quickly! If they can maintain and practice keeping the corners firm, and playing with minimal pressure, a double C pops out exactly the same regardless of mouthpiece size. A smaller, shallower mouthpiece will change the tone quality dramatically and if you need a bright sound, could save you a ton of work. THAT energy could be better applied elsewhere.

Range is a poor excuse to buy a new mouthpieces. The ads are plain old LIES!

screamingmorris

I didn't say anything about cup diameter.
I was speaking of cup depth.
Although cup diameter does affect range, cup depth affects the range more.

An octave higher in frequency equates to 1/2 the string length on a string instrument.
Same thing on non-string instruments.
If one brass mouthpiece cup is 50 percent the depth of another cup, then it is half the distance from rim to throat and so it reinforces frequencies that are an octave higher.
That is why people who use extra-deep mouthpieces like the Curry TF or the Yamaha 13E4 find that their range has dropped an octave; the cup is twice as deep and so resonates an octave lower.

Consider this:
Many players who have a range to High F on "regular" mouthpieces says that they lose an octave on their range when they play the extra-deep Curry TF or the extra-deep Yamaha 13E4.
Why?
Did their lips instantly become weak and instantly become incapable of generating those higher frequencies?
Of course not.
Playing a much deeper cup caused a loss of range.
The *opposite* is also true.

It is true, as I already stated, that a person must already have an embouchure that is developed enough to generate the higher frequencies.
But the choice of cup depth will then either reinforce those higher frequencies generated by the lips or fight against those higher frequencies generated by the lips.
As I said, the shallower mouthpiece does not give a person high notes, but it does reinforce the high notes rather than fight against them.
You can play a high note on a bass fiddle by really straining at the long string, but you can play that same high note with relative ease on a violin because its string length already reinforces such high notes without having to be strained.

People who have played a "mountain jug", or played across the top of a soda pop bottle as I described earlier, know from experience that the amount of fluid in the jug / bottle changes the frequency because the fluid level determines the depth of the air-space "cup" inside the jug / bottle.
If the fluid level is low then the air-space "cup" is deep and the resonant frequency is also low; in order to play a high note when the air-space cup is deep, one must then greatly adjust the angle of air flow and greatly increase the air speed in order to "falsetto" the high note.
But adding fluid to the jug / bottle to make the air-space "cup" shallower makes that high note easy without having to resort to "falsetto" measures.

But I'm not going to debate the matter further, because repeating the same things over and over gets us nowhere.
You believe one thing, I believe another.
Only if you were my wife would you be required to agree with me on everything

- Morris

cmg

Lets see, for the bottle physics, f = v/4L where f is frequency, v is speed of sound, L is length of column of air. Assuming a deep mouthpiece, rim to throat distance approx. 0.75 inches, this gives a fundamental frequency of 4464 Hz. Shallow, 50% depth 0.375 inch gives a fundamental frequency of 8928 Hz. I will remind the readers that double C on a Bb has a frequency of 1865 Hz. The bottle analogy does not hold here...simple reason...we are not trying to drive a column of air the length of the mouthpiece depth, we are trying to drive a resonant column of air that is the total length of the horn, about 4 1/2 feet for a Bb trumpet. I'll return to this thread later to add more insights, as I have to run to pick up the kids.

For the advanced readers , you may want to bone up on Helmholtz resonators...

Chris

rowuk

Something much different happens with the mouthpiece. Depending on the cup depth, the strength of the overtones change. A shallow mouthpiece has more turbulence or "back pressure". If this is matched up with the correct embouchure and breath support, the lips have resistance from both sides which raises the resonant frequency of the vibrating mass and limits the maximum flap distance of the lips. This causes the higher overtones to seem stronger (by damping the fundemental)and that creates a brighter sound. Because you cannot get a shallow mouthpiece to function mashing it into your face, the more relaxed embouchure is free to vibrate fast.

A deep mouthpiece allows the lips to flap much further (they don't bottom out), and this allows the fundemental to be stronger and makes the sound darker. IF you resist the urge to mash the mouthpiece into your face, your top end is only limited by your breath support, exactly the same as with a shallow mouthpiece. If your range goes down, you are just playing wrong!

I repeat myself, high notes are dependent on your embouchure NOT rim size or cup depth. My range is exactly the same on a Monette B2D or a Schilke 14A4A or a Bach 7C, 1C, 1X or 10 1/2E. I use different mouthpieces for creating a tone color most suitable for what I am playing. I have also tested this concept on several of my students with the same results. The secret is not using pressure to get range!

The Helmholz resonator is in fact part of mouthpiece dynamics, but its effect is modified by the resonant characteristics of the trumpet too! Most resonators behave erratically a couple of octaves below their tuned frequency and it is no different here! By the way, irregular shaped objects have a tuned frequency based on volume not distance. That is why we can get a short, fat beer bottle to resonate at the same frequency as a long, skinny one. The internal volume just must be the same. The difference in mouthpiece volume does not explain how the lips can vibrate faster, that is based on the effective mass of the lips, the pressure between the two lips and the speed of the air moving across them. Lip mass and pressure is controlled by compression, air speed is controlled by the shape of the corridor in the oral cavity. Synchronizing these factors gives us the upper octave.