Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System - Page 2

Sofus · 07-02-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

This system allow you to be as close as possible to
a "one piece" heavy top mp

1) "as close as"!? Is that really what we want? Is that good enough?

2) If we want more mass to our mp´s, why choose wood or plastic at all?
Why not choose brass, lead or even gold (don´t be a cheapskate!)?

3) The connection between mp and sleeve is still a lot loser than an mp
cut in one piece. How do we know

* that the sleeve won´t vibrate at its own frequency
* that there are no cavities between mp and sleeves that give
a resonance frequency of its own
* how hard to tighten the sleeve to the mp? Should this be done in
the same way that we tighten the bolts holding the wheels on our car,
with a special tool? If not, how hard then? Won´t it actually matter?

4) If we use brass in the mp and some other material in the sleeve,
their stiffness will be different. What effect will this have, if they are
in contact when vibrating?

5) Why is it important to apply extra mass on the mp? This is one of the
places along the entire system where pressure is realtively small and walls
are very thick, compared to other places. Shouldn´t we rather try to put
sleeves at places on the trumpet where walls are THIN and pressure HIGH?
Wouldn´t a need for sleeves actually be where the trumpet walls vibrate
the most?

There has been absolutely NO SCIENTIFIC APPROACH regarding the sleeves.
Personally, in my striving for a better tone, I´d rather use woodoo than them!

nordlandstrompet · 07-02-2009, 06:05 PM

1) "as close as"!? Is that really what we want? Is that good enough?

It is as I wrote "as close as". If this is what you want, I don't know.
Is it good enough? It works for me, and a lot of players have tested
the system and are impressed how it works, and how easy it is to use.

2) If we want more mass to our mp´s, why choose wood or plastic at all?
Why not choose brass, lead or even gold (don´t be a cheapskate!)?

This thread was originally about Josh Landress' wooden sleeve.
Kiku Collins is one of the users of this. She is very satisfied with it.
My system has been tested with: Brass, bronze, aluminum and stainless steel
and combinations with metal, plastics and woods.

3) The connection between mp and sleeve is still a lot loser than an mp
cut in one piece.

You are probably right.

How do we know

* that the sleeve won´t vibrate at its own frequency

The sleeve will wibrate at its own natural frequency

* that there are no cavities between mp and sleeves that give
a resonance frequency of its own

We don't know for sure, but if you were a dog, you might be able to hear it

* how hard to tighten the sleeve to the mp? Should this be done in
the same way that we tighten the bolts holding the wheels on our car,
with a special tool? If not, how hard then? Won´t it actually matter?

We are talking about "mouth piece sound sleeves"

4) If we use brass in the mp and some other material in the sleeve,
their stiffness will be different. What effect will this have, if they are
in contact when vibrating?

One of the effects is a change of sound.
Another is change of the feel of the trumpet.

5) Why is it important to apply extra mass on the mp? This is one of the
places along the entire system where pressure is realtively small and walls
are very thick, compared to other places. Shouldn´t we rather try to put
sleeves at places on the trumpet where walls are THIN and pressure HIGH?
Wouldn´t a need for sleeves actually be where the trumpet walls vibrate
the most?

#1: Go to Harrelsons web site and read about "SWE"
#2: The pressure in a trumpet is highest in the mp cup before the throat.

There has been absolutely NO SCIENTIFIC APPROACH regarding the sleeves.

What is a scientific approach?

Personally, in my striving for a better tone, I´d rather use woodoo than them!

My late mother and father teached me how to keep a good tone.
On the trumpet, I had to figure out most of it myself.

Markie · 07-02-2009, 07:55 PM

Hi sofus,
Where did you look to come to the conclusion that no scientific testing has been done.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I would just like to know the places so if I have a question about trumpet acoustics I'll know where to contact.
Thanks

Sofus · 07-03-2009, 08:52 AM

Markie!

Quote:

Where did you look to come to the conclusion that no scientific testing has been done.

I do not know this for sure, but since the people who
benefit from selling these articles are SO RELUCTANT
to reveal any results from such measurements, that
is my conclusion.

Quote:

I'm not trying to be disrespectful,

You´re not disrespectful at all, Markie! Posing questions
and evaluating the answers is the wisest thing to do
when so many myths are circulating!

Quote:

I would just like to know the places so if I have a question about trumpet acoustics I'll know where to contact.

Since I´m saying that I haven´t seen any such places, I can´t
tell you what they are, either.

Nordlands:

The first half of yor answer says that "people have tested it
and they like it". Well, good for them as well as for you, since
you´ll then be able to sell them. Money is always nice!

The second half either says;

* that I´m right, but what does it matter!!!!
* that I´m wrong about the pressure maxima/minima,
but since the mp end is the OPEN end on a trumpet
(you´ll have to study wave physics to understand this)
the pressure there should be low. Anyway, the walls are
thicker there than any other place on the system.
* what´s a scientific approach. A simple kind would be
blindtesting, another kind would be spectrum analysing
under known conditions. The fact that you get someone
to LIKE them has NOTHING to do with science, or with
whether they do something good to the tone or not!

I´ve tried to locate the place at Harrelsons website that
you refer to. Could you please post the link to the exact
page?

nordlandstrompet · 07-03-2009, 09:49 AM

Standing Wave Efficiency (SWE)

Standing Wave Efficiency (SWE)
Imagine playing longer with less fatique and higher with perfectly clean attacks at any dynamic level. Because we integrate the principles of physics into every design, Harrelson Trumpets are considerably more efficient than other custom horns. Higher efficiency means you make more sound with less effort. From near trombone-dark to sizzling bright, the sound in your mind's ear is now an acoustic reality.

Take your playing to the next level today by upgrading the SWE factor of your equipment. Harrelson SWE Trim Kits are designed to improve the efficiency of any instrument, regardless of the original design. This is a simple cost-effective way to upgrade the performance of your current trumpet, cornet or flugelhorn.

Harrelson SWE Mouthpiece Modifications also improve SWE by preserving energy at the source of the vibrating surface (the lips) and transmitting more energy to the leadpipe and trumpet. You will notice an immediate improvement in attacks at all dynamic levels with a simple modification to your mouthpiece or purchase a new Harrelson Mouthpiece in almost any size.

How Does SWE work?
Standing Wave Efficiency (SWE) Technology is a physics-based design method that preserves energy in the sound wave as it travels through a tube or instrument.

In a traditional trumpet, energy in the standing wave is lost in the form of vibration as it travels through the trumpet. The further the wave travels, the more energy is lost. To make things more complicated, the higher the note on the trumpet the greater number of nodes and anti-nodes. These nodal points vibrate the tubing wall and braces, robbing even more energy from the wave. And it doesn't stop there! A common side-effect of nodal points involves Excessive Vibration Interference (EVI) between fixed points (trumpet braces) separated by vibration-prone material (thin and/or stiff tubing).

EVI is present on all traditional trumpets especially along the leadpipe and bell, which results in interference with the original sound wave. The EVI effect becomes more noticeable in the upper register of any brass instrument. This is due to the greater number of anti-nodes and nearly proportional number of spans measuring EVI. Difficulty in the upper registers of the trumpet is mostly due to the EVI effect. Reduce the EVI with SWE technology and the upper registers respond and sound much like the low and mid-registers.

High efficiency Harrelson Trumpets retain sound quality and character throughout all four octaves by preserving energy in the sound wave. It is possible to double and triple tongue 2 or more octaves almost effortlessly on a Bravura and 2.5-3 octaves on the 909, Nouveau and Satellite. Of course some practice is definitely involved!

SWE is much like improved fuel efficiency in a car. In the past 100 years, the efficiency of the automobile has improved considerably. The very first vehicles had such low fuel efficiency and power that they were considered oddities with no purpose. Vehicles of today are hundreds of times more efficient exhibiting power, handling and usefulness that is beyond their original inventors' comprehension.

Now imagine the evolution of the trumpet. There have been a few innovative and practical improvements to the trumpet over the past 100 years, but efficiency has increased by very little in production instruments. Harrelson trumpets are the most efficient trumpet designs ever created. Like the automobile, better efficiency means more power, range, endurance, playability, dynamics and sound.

SWE Reasearch & Development
Jason Harrelson has been researching and applying SWE technology since 1996 both in the lab and real world playing situations. Harrelson's SWE research and development has involved more than 200 unique trumpet designs, hundreds of experiments with students and colleagues and feedback from more than 1000 individual trumpet players as of 2008.

Individual Consultation
Jason Harrelson is an active musician and trumpet builder. His diverse performance experience offers clients valuable perspective throughout the design and production process. He will consider your individual concerns and playing preferences while offering solid advice on technique and equipment solutions. Jason has dedicated his life to improving the way you make music. Schedule an appointment with Jason to discuss your personal needs today.

Sofus · 07-03-2009, 09:56 AM

I can´t see that it anywhere says that the
WAVE PRESSURE VARIATIONS are the gratest
in the mp cup.
In fact, I can´t even see that it anywhere says
that the AIR PRESSURE is the highest in the cup,
(I´m mentioning this since air pressure often is
mistaken for wave pressure variations by people
who don´t know the difference) although it very
well can be. That is, however, a totally different
matter, and of NO interrest in this discussion.

nordlandstrompet · 07-03-2009, 10:42 AM

__________________________________________________ _________

Sofus · 07-03-2009, 10:59 AM

Hope we´re still friends, nordlands!

The reason I bother to write is that I think people should buy them
for the right reason. There is not likely any tone quality reason, but
I can see other reasons:

* THEY LOOK COOL (especially the wooden kind)
* THE WOODEN KIND WILL BE NICE TO HOLD EVEN IN COLD WEATHER
* A MODEL WITH NUDE WOMEN ON IS ON IT´S WAY (that´s when I start buying!)

Maybe too much wishful thinking in the end?

Any way, good luck!

trumpetnick · 07-03-2009, 11:09 AM

Sofus,

http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f131...ves-47412.html is too much even for you. Many people use those sound sleeve, booster or tone intensifiers. They really changes things, if not soundwise, even the psychological effect is desirable. Are one piece mouthpieces better? Why then so many people use modular systems like Warburton, Breslmair etc? You should think this over once again and stop insulting people and their work. I told you once, that you seem not to know when to stop. You once more proved me right.

Sofus · 07-03-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Many people use those sound sleeve, booster or tone intensifiers. They really changes things, if not soundwise, even the psychological effect is desirable.

Yes, the the psychological effect is desirable, but the statement made in here
is that they are better also SOUNDWISE. I have seen no proof/measurements of
this, instead I make suggestions why they may not be better in that respect.
Should I keep my mouth shut, not using the knowledge I have?

Quote:

Are one piece mouthpieces better?

I have presented thoughts about questions that need to be
answered before we know the answer to this. Let some real
laboratory measurements give the answer. After all, also you
must think that the truth in this matter is important, don´t you?

Quote:

Why then so many people use modular systems like Warburton, Breslmair etc?

I use Warburton myself, since I like to be able to decide the
backbore for myself. Maybe there can be other explanations
valid for other people . . .

Quote:

You should think this over once again and stop insulting people and their work.

This is NOT an attempt to insult nordlands!!!! IT IS NOT!!!!
I like the guy, and we have talked in the chat room many times earlier.

Quote:

I told you once, that you seem not to know when to stop.
You once more proved me right.

You really make me feel sad now, Nick!
I think you´re reading in a lot more to my post than I ever intended,
and I also think that you´re a bit quick to judge me. I´ve always
enjoyed the chats we´ve been having, and I consider you a very
nice and educated person with knowledge of things I personally
know much less about.
It hurts when you say the things you´ve just said.

07-02-2009, 06:05 PM	#12
nordlandstrompet Forte User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 1,156	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System 1) "as close as"!? Is that really what we want? Is that good enough? It is as I wrote "as close as". If this is what you want, I don't know. Is it good enough? It works for me, and a lot of players have tested the system and are impressed how it works, and how easy it is to use. 2) If we want more mass to our mp´s, why choose wood or plastic at all? Why not choose brass, lead or even gold (don´t be a cheapskate!)? This thread was originally about Josh Landress' wooden sleeve. Kiku Collins is one of the users of this. She is very satisfied with it. My system has been tested with: Brass, bronze, aluminum and stainless steel and combinations with metal, plastics and woods. 3) The connection between mp and sleeve is still a lot loser than an mp cut in one piece. You are probably right. How do we know * that the sleeve won´t vibrate at its own frequency The sleeve will wibrate at its own natural frequency * that there are no cavities between mp and sleeves that give a resonance frequency of its own We don't know for sure, but if you were a dog, you might be able to hear it * how hard to tighten the sleeve to the mp? Should this be done in the same way that we tighten the bolts holding the wheels on our car, with a special tool? If not, how hard then? Won´t it actually matter? We are talking about "mouth piece sound sleeves" 4) If we use brass in the mp and some other material in the sleeve, their stiffness will be different. What effect will this have, if they are in contact when vibrating? One of the effects is a change of sound. Another is change of the feel of the trumpet. 5) Why is it important to apply extra mass on the mp? This is one of the places along the entire system where pressure is realtively small and walls are very thick, compared to other places. Shouldn´t we rather try to put sleeves at places on the trumpet where walls are THIN and pressure HIGH? Wouldn´t a need for sleeves actually be where the trumpet walls vibrate the most? #1: Go to Harrelsons web site and read about "SWE" #2: The pressure in a trumpet is highest in the mp cup before the throat. There has been absolutely NO SCIENTIFIC APPROACH regarding the sleeves. What is a scientific approach? Personally, in my striving for a better tone, I´d rather use woodoo than them! My late mother and father teached me how to keep a good tone. On the trumpet, I had to figure out most of it myself. __________________ nordlands roarmp.com "When you play an Andante, people have to cry..." Maurice Andrè Olds Recording Yamaha 731S cornet Conn V1 flugel

07-02-2009, 07:55 PM	#13
Markie Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Clarksburg, WV Posts: 732	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Hi sofus, Where did you look to come to the conclusion that no scientific testing has been done. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I would just like to know the places so if I have a question about trumpet acoustics I'll know where to contact. Thanks Last edited by Schwab; 07-02-2009 at 08:31 PM.

07-03-2009, 09:49 AM	#15
nordlandstrompet Forte User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 1,156	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Standing Wave Efficiency (SWE) Standing Wave Efficiency (SWE) Imagine playing longer with less fatique and higher with perfectly clean attacks at any dynamic level. Because we integrate the principles of physics into every design, Harrelson Trumpets are considerably more efficient than other custom horns. Higher efficiency means you make more sound with less effort. From near trombone-dark to sizzling bright, the sound in your mind's ear is now an acoustic reality. Take your playing to the next level today by upgrading the SWE factor of your equipment. Harrelson SWE Trim Kits are designed to improve the efficiency of any instrument, regardless of the original design. This is a simple cost-effective way to upgrade the performance of your current trumpet, cornet or flugelhorn. Harrelson SWE Mouthpiece Modifications also improve SWE by preserving energy at the source of the vibrating surface (the lips) and transmitting more energy to the leadpipe and trumpet. You will notice an immediate improvement in attacks at all dynamic levels with a simple modification to your mouthpiece or purchase a new Harrelson Mouthpiece in almost any size. How Does SWE work? Standing Wave Efficiency (SWE) Technology is a physics-based design method that preserves energy in the sound wave as it travels through a tube or instrument. In a traditional trumpet, energy in the standing wave is lost in the form of vibration as it travels through the trumpet. The further the wave travels, the more energy is lost. To make things more complicated, the higher the note on the trumpet the greater number of nodes and anti-nodes. These nodal points vibrate the tubing wall and braces, robbing even more energy from the wave. And it doesn't stop there! A common side-effect of nodal points involves Excessive Vibration Interference (EVI) between fixed points (trumpet braces) separated by vibration-prone material (thin and/or stiff tubing). EVI is present on all traditional trumpets especially along the leadpipe and bell, which results in interference with the original sound wave. The EVI effect becomes more noticeable in the upper register of any brass instrument. This is due to the greater number of anti-nodes and nearly proportional number of spans measuring EVI. Difficulty in the upper registers of the trumpet is mostly due to the EVI effect. Reduce the EVI with SWE technology and the upper registers respond and sound much like the low and mid-registers. High efficiency Harrelson Trumpets retain sound quality and character throughout all four octaves by preserving energy in the sound wave. It is possible to double and triple tongue 2 or more octaves almost effortlessly on a Bravura and 2.5-3 octaves on the 909, Nouveau and Satellite. Of course some practice is definitely involved! SWE is much like improved fuel efficiency in a car. In the past 100 years, the efficiency of the automobile has improved considerably. The very first vehicles had such low fuel efficiency and power that they were considered oddities with no purpose. Vehicles of today are hundreds of times more efficient exhibiting power, handling and usefulness that is beyond their original inventors' comprehension. Now imagine the evolution of the trumpet. There have been a few innovative and practical improvements to the trumpet over the past 100 years, but efficiency has increased by very little in production instruments. Harrelson trumpets are the most efficient trumpet designs ever created. Like the automobile, better efficiency means more power, range, endurance, playability, dynamics and sound. SWE Reasearch & Development Jason Harrelson has been researching and applying SWE technology since 1996 both in the lab and real world playing situations. Harrelson's SWE research and development has involved more than 200 unique trumpet designs, hundreds of experiments with students and colleagues and feedback from more than 1000 individual trumpet players as of 2008. Individual Consultation Jason Harrelson is an active musician and trumpet builder. His diverse performance experience offers clients valuable perspective throughout the design and production process. He will consider your individual concerns and playing preferences while offering solid advice on technique and equipment solutions. Jason has dedicated his life to improving the way you make music. Schedule an appointment with Jason to discuss your personal needs today. __________________ nordlands roarmp.com "When you play an Andante, people have to cry..." Maurice Andrè Olds Recording Yamaha 731S cornet Conn V1 flugel

07-03-2009, 09:56 AM	#16
Sofus Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden Posts: 1,313	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System I can´t see that it anywhere says that the WAVE PRESSURE VARIATIONS are the gratest in the mp cup. In fact, I can´t even see that it anywhere says that the AIR PRESSURE is the highest in the cup, (I´m mentioning this since air pressure often is mistaken for wave pressure variations by people who don´t know the difference) although it very well can be. That is, however, a totally different matter, and of NO interrest in this discussion. __________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and that´s no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity Last edited by Sofus; 07-03-2009 at 10:10 AM.

07-03-2009, 10:42 AM	#17
nordlandstrompet Forte User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 1,156	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System __________________________________________________ _________ __________________ nordlands roarmp.com "When you play an Andante, people have to cry..." Maurice Andrè Olds Recording Yamaha 731S cornet Conn V1 flugel

07-03-2009, 10:59 AM	#18
Sofus Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden Posts: 1,313	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Hope we´re still friends, nordlands! The reason I bother to write is that I think people should buy them for the right reason. There is not likely any tone quality reason, but I can see other reasons: * THEY LOOK COOL (especially the wooden kind) * THE WOODEN KIND WILL BE NICE TO HOLD EVEN IN COLD WEATHER * A MODEL WITH NUDE WOMEN ON IS ON IT´S WAY (that´s when I start buying!) Maybe too much wishful thinking in the end? Any way, good luck! __________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and that´s no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity

07-03-2009, 11:09 AM	#19
trumpetnick Forte User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vidin, Bulgaria Posts: 1,890	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Sofus, http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f131...ves-47412.html is too much even for you. Many people use those sound sleeve, booster or tone intensifiers. They really changes things, if not soundwise, even the psychological effect is desirable. Are one piece mouthpieces better? Why then so many people use modular systems like Warburton, Breslmair etc? You should think this over once again and stop insulting people and their work. I told you once, that you seem not to know when to stop. You once more proved me right. __________________ Spada Bach B flat 72, leadpipe 2L/DWMM1.5C Spada Bach C 256, leadpipe 2LQ/DWMM1.5C 1956 Olds Ambassador Cornet Spada Custom Piccolo If you don't know where you are going, you 'll end up someplace else

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