Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System - Page 3

MTROSTER · 07-03-2009, 12:46 PM

Sofus. Thank you for adding a note of sanity to this insanity of cure-all mouthpiece configurations. Every maker makes claims that don't seem to be able to be substantiated by close examination. It's like weight losing programs. Every one works at first, but it's mainly psychological. I remember when the Olds Trumpet manufacturing company offered about three mouth pieces. The Martin Committee offered two and the people who played them made beautiful music.Bach coroporation offered about over 1500 combinations in their mouthpiece selection(which they admitted was "An embarrassment of riches". Much of this mouthpiece nonsense is in the head.

sachmo · 07-03-2009, 01:56 PM

I play jazz as a way of self-expression through music. What I play and how I sound reflects not only my training, but also my emotions. If the wooden sleeve would fit my GR mouthpiece I would try it out because I like the way it looks. If I liked different valve tops, I would replace mine to make my horn look nicer. If I don't like how the sleeve makes me sound I wouldn't use it. If I want to play higher, sound "better" I would save my money and practice more. I am going to get my "sound" out of most any horn I play. Any real modifications to my horn/mpc should affect how its played. The real question is do I like my sound and if not how do I want to change it. For me, I already have a nice tone, but I still use mutes to get different sounds, so why not use a sleeve for a different effect?

Sofus · 07-03-2009, 02:01 PM

Thank you both!

I just want the discussion to take place on the
level where I think it belongs, thats all. Thank you!

rowuk · 07-03-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTROSTER

Sofus. Thank you for adding a note of sanity to this insanity of cure-all mouthpiece configurations. Every maker makes claims that don't seem to be able to be substantiated by close examination. It's like weight losing programs. Every one works at first, but it's mainly psychological. I remember when the Olds Trumpet manufacturing company offered about three mouth pieces. The Martin Committee offered two and the people who played them made beautiful music.Bach coroporation offered about over 1500 combinations in their mouthpiece selection(which they admitted was "An embarrassment of riches". Much of this mouthpiece nonsense is in the head.

I will go on record as saying that the weight in mouthpieces makes a big difference. I believe that this is not due to voodoo, rather the mass of the mouthpiece changes the amount and nature of the "feedback" from the horn to the lips. My own opinion is that the entire system of trumpet, mouthpiece and player must be balanced. Changing any single parameter will change but not necessarily improve the output. Adding weight to a mouthpiece will require changes in the construction of the horn, and perhaps other factors on the mouthpiece like backbore, throat and cup shape.

As far as what sensible people have to say about mass:
Mouthpiece Mass
http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~hongta...n_JASA1994.pdf
David G. Monette Corporation
http://www.music.mahidol.ac.th/music...outhpieces.pdf
Brass-wind musical instrument mouthpiece - US Patent 5969280 Description
The Anatomy of a Mouthpiece
What About Heavy Horns?
this link will show how "different" players are. That will surely account for a great deal of individual preferences!
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/pdf_d...5-Budapest.pdf

In any case, we need to keep an open mind. Even a simply psychological advantage is an advantage.

Sofus · 07-04-2009, 11:22 AM

Robin!

Thank you for once again sharing some very interresting articles!
I´ve read all but one which I couldn´t get access to.
For the reader not having the time to read all 8 of them, i recommend

What About Heavy Horns?

written by Nick Drozdoff, a skilled trumpeter well known to all of us.
Nick takes up a couple of interresting things in a pedagogic way there.
In one of the others is stated that adding mass to a mouthpiece
will give a more mellow tone, yet another statement in another article
tells us that the player, mouthpiece and trumpet is a balanced system
where adding mass to a mouthpiece could be beneficial to one trumpeter,
while removing mass from a mouthpiece could be beneficial to another.

MY PART OF THE DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD: the name of this thread is

Wooden Sleeve SOUND ENHANCEMENT System

and, except for my one question whether mass shouldn´t rather be
added to the places where the vibrations are the biggest, my main
question has all the time been: Is the method used by the author of
this thread for adding mass to his mouthpieces really doing that job well
(as seen in the articles shared by you, people don´t even agree that
ADDING mass always is the best, but that´s another matter . . .)?

When one reads the posts one will realize that the discussion hasn´t been
about whether adding mass to the mouthpiece is good or not (except for my
one question about placement), instead the discission has been whether
the way the author prescribes to do it is a good way or not.
I believe that the questions posted by me are still both relevant and unanswered.

* When threading the original mp, some brass is cut off.
How much weight is then cut off, compared to the weight
that later is added by a wooden sleeve? Will the mp be
heavier or maybe lighter after the transformation, if wood
or plastic sleeves are used?
* The sleeves are not soldered to the original mouthpiece.
If the threads were filled with silver solder or similar, maybe
the mp and sleeve would act as if the mp had been cut out
of one piece of brass (I don´t know, but maybe).
Instead the sleeves are loosely connected to the mp, and what
will be the result of this? In some cases when resonators are
connected to each other, they will alter to some extent but also
keep part of their individual behavior, more or less depending on
how hard they are being connected to each other.
What happens in this case?

Also other additional questions have been posed by me, all concerning
whether adding mass in this way is proven to work or not (and whether
any tests at all has been done on these transformed mp´s).

THE QUESTION ABOUT "PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVANTAGES":

I once saw a TV program about people believing that "cosmic rays from heaven"
were invading their brains. A good idea from a business point of view might just
be to start producing "The Sofus Metal Foil Cosmic Ray Blocking Hat" and sell this
stuff to these poor people. Anyone accusing me of bad moral could easily be rejected
by saying that "this is a phychological matter, and as long as they like my metal foil
hats and think that they work, there´s no reason not to sell them these hats".

This brings us to a VERY important question; what is the purpose of this forum?
Is it that experiences shall be shared, truth shall be told and myths be killed, or
is it something else?

If you, Robin, hear something in here that you find questionable from a technical
point of view, something that is untrue or a myth, won´t you then feel obligated
to shed some light over the matter?
I have always thought that this is what you among others try to do . . .

RobertSlotte · 07-04-2009, 02:13 PM

Sofus,

You say you like Nordlands and that you are his friend. Do not take this the wrong way but let me ask you:
Do you think you are helping your "friend" in his newfounded business buy all the posts you have posted in this thread? :(

The only thing Nordlands is claiming is that the mp´s gives different sound and feel when playing....he does not say it gives you an octave to your range.
And I have to say from experiense that extra mass gives you different sound and feel...so why do you want to sabotage his business?
And pls do NOT say that you do not want to do that...becouse you have for sure posted a LOT of negativety about his products.

Yes Sofus I know we are friends but I was surprised to se you post this kinds of posts here....You say that you feel it is important to speak whats on your mind and I fore sure understand that becouse that is what I am doing right now.

Sofus · 07-04-2009, 03:02 PM

Hey there, Robert!

I´ll take this step by step (I´m NOT angry just because you speak your mind!).

Quote:

Do you think you are helping your "friend" in his newfounded business buy all the posts you have posted in this thread? :(

I don´t think his business is more important than the people that could be
convinced to buy these products! The fellow trumpeters in here, as well as
the truth and facts about how things are, are more important than any "business".

HOWEVER::::: I THINK THERE IS A PLACE FOR HIS PRODUCTS!!!!!!

I just want my fellow trumpeters in here to buy his products for THE RIGHT REASON!!!
THE PRODUCTS ARE COOOOOOOL!!! I LOVE THE WOODEN SLEEVES!!
However, I will not buy them just because it is stated that they are a

Wooden Sleeve SOUND ENHANCEMENT Systems!!!!!!!

I want to see proof of this, especially since there obviously are so many
various opinions about what the effect of additional mass will give, not
to mention that I feel uncertain that adding mass in the way prescribed
actually will work!!
I AM his friend!! I absolutely think highly enough of him to believe that he is
serious and that he can take a debate for what it is; a way that may lead
to a higher level of clarity!
His wooden sleeves are cool and beautiful. I may just buy one in the future,
but it will not be because I think they are SOUND ENHANCERS . . .

Quote:

The only thing Nordlands is claiming is that the mp´s gives different sound and feel when playing....he does not say it gives you an octave to your range.

I´ve never said that he has said that. What he HAS said is that they ENHANCE SOUND.
This could mean a lot of things . . .
And he´s right; Obviously, if we believe the things stated in the articles shared by Robin,
things WILL be different. The only problem seems to be that one can´t know if this is for
the better or for the worse . . .

Quote:

And pls do NOT say that you do not want to do that...becouse you have for sure posted a LOT of negativety about his products.

I DO say that I don´t want to do that!!
What I want is simply some verification of what the effect of these sleeves is,
whether it is true that mass can be added in this lose way or not, etc.

Quote:

You say that you feel it is important to speak whats on your mind and I fore sure understand that becouse that is what I am doing right now.

You´re MORE than welcome to do exactly this, my friend!
Remember; people may want to stop discussing things with me, but I DO try to keep
the discussions on a technical, non- emotional level, and you can trust me on one thing;

I WILL NEVER GIVE UP MY FRIENDSHIP WITH SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE HE/SHE HAS
A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN ME!

I do, however, think that WE ALL are important, and that no "business" comes before
ANY of us!

STILL LOVE YOU, MAN!!

RobertSlotte · 07-04-2009, 03:12 PM

This does not feel good...I like both Nordland and Sofus....I still think Sofus are a bit to hard on Nordland right now :( Hey Sofus, at least admit that you for sure does NOT help Nordland in his business with what you have been writing here. At least then I get a bit more respect back....In my eyes you are still trying to sabotage :( Not the BEngt Sofus I know from Facebook :( I am a bit saad :(

Sofus · 07-04-2009, 03:34 PM

Well my friend, now I´m sad too!

Quote:

Hey Sofus, at least admit that you for sure does NOT help Nordland in his business with what you have been writing here.

In the long run it just might! Sooner or later someone else is going to
question whether there is any facts backing up that these sleeves are
SOUND ENHANCERS. If Nordlands stops claiming this, until proof is given,
and instead point out their OBVIOUS benefits (COOL, BEAUTIFUL, CLASSY)
I truely think this will be enough for anybody to want them!
This would in deed be a very good comercial grip!

Quote:

In my eyes you are still trying to sabotage

What can I say? My wish to see trumpet gear develop is as big
as anybodys elses.
But wouldn´t you agree; the whole purpose of a forum like this one
(the one we all at times visit in our eager to learn more) must be to
raise our knowledge to higher and higher levels? At what point should
someones business be so much more important than the people in here that questions should stop being posed?

RobertSlotte · 07-04-2009, 03:41 PM

No more comments from me!!!

I am sorry to say I deleted you from my Facebook friends now....and YES!!! I AM sad about that :( I liked to chat to you :(

07-03-2009, 12:46 PM	#21
MTROSTER Pianissimo User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 86	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Sofus. Thank you for adding a note of sanity to this insanity of cure-all mouthpiece configurations. Every maker makes claims that don't seem to be able to be substantiated by close examination. It's like weight losing programs. Every one works at first, but it's mainly psychological. I remember when the Olds Trumpet manufacturing company offered about three mouth pieces. The Martin Committee offered two and the people who played them made beautiful music.Bach coroporation offered about over 1500 combinations in their mouthpiece selection(which they admitted was "An embarrassment of riches". Much of this mouthpiece nonsense is in the head.

07-03-2009, 01:56 PM	#22
sachmo New Friend Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 28	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System I play jazz as a way of self-expression through music. What I play and how I sound reflects not only my training, but also my emotions. If the wooden sleeve would fit my GR mouthpiece I would try it out because I like the way it looks. If I liked different valve tops, I would replace mine to make my horn look nicer. If I don't like how the sleeve makes me sound I wouldn't use it. If I want to play higher, sound "better" I would save my money and practice more. I am going to get my "sound" out of most any horn I play. Any real modifications to my horn/mpc should affect how its played. The real question is do I like my sound and if not how do I want to change it. For me, I already have a nice tone, but I still use mutes to get different sounds, so why not use a sleeve for a different effect?

07-03-2009, 02:01 PM	#23
Sofus Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden Posts: 1,315	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Thank you both! I just want the discussion to take place on the level where I think it belongs, thats all. Thank you! __________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and that´s no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity

07-04-2009, 11:22 AM	#25
Sofus Forte User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden Posts: 1,315	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Robin! Thank you for once again sharing some very interresting articles! I´ve read all but one which I couldn´t get access to. For the reader not having the time to read all 8 of them, i recommend What About Heavy Horns? written by Nick Drozdoff, a skilled trumpeter well known to all of us. Nick takes up a couple of interresting things in a pedagogic way there. In one of the others is stated that adding mass to a mouthpiece will give a more mellow tone, yet another statement in another article tells us that the player, mouthpiece and trumpet is a balanced system where adding mass to a mouthpiece could be beneficial to one trumpeter, while removing mass from a mouthpiece could be beneficial to another. MY PART OF THE DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD: the name of this thread is Wooden Sleeve SOUND ENHANCEMENT System and, except for my one question whether mass shouldn´t rather be added to the places where the vibrations are the biggest, my main question has all the time been: Is the method used by the author of this thread for adding mass to his mouthpieces really doing that job well (as seen in the articles shared by you, people don´t even agree that ADDING mass always is the best, but that´s another matter . . .)? When one reads the posts one will realize that the discussion hasn´t been about whether adding mass to the mouthpiece is good or not (except for my one question about placement), instead the discission has been whether the way the author prescribes to do it is a good way or not. I believe that the questions posted by me are still both relevant and unanswered. * When threading the original mp, some brass is cut off. How much weight is then cut off, compared to the weight that later is added by a wooden sleeve? Will the mp be heavier or maybe lighter after the transformation, if wood or plastic sleeves are used? * The sleeves are not soldered to the original mouthpiece. If the threads were filled with silver solder or similar, maybe the mp and sleeve would act as if the mp had been cut out of one piece of brass (I don´t know, but maybe). Instead the sleeves are loosely connected to the mp, and what will be the result of this? In some cases when resonators are connected to each other, they will alter to some extent but also keep part of their individual behavior, more or less depending on how hard they are being connected to each other. What happens in this case? Also other additional questions have been posed by me, all concerning whether adding mass in this way is proven to work or not (and whether any tests at all has been done on these transformed mp´s). THE QUESTION ABOUT "PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVANTAGES": I once saw a TV program about people believing that "cosmic rays from heaven" were invading their brains. A good idea from a business point of view might just be to start producing "The Sofus Metal Foil Cosmic Ray Blocking Hat" and sell this stuff to these poor people. Anyone accusing me of bad moral could easily be rejected by saying that "this is a phychological matter, and as long as they like my metal foil hats and think that they work, there´s no reason not to sell them these hats". This brings us to a VERY important question; what is the purpose of this forum? Is it that experiences shall be shared, truth shall be told and myths be killed, or is it something else? If you, Robin, hear something in here that you find questionable from a technical point of view, something that is untrue or a myth, won´t you then feel obligated to shed some light over the matter? I have always thought that this is what you among others try to do . . . __________________ " There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and that´s no secret! " Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway ******************** Mouthpiece and Solidarity Last edited by Sofus; 07-04-2009 at 11:25 AM.

07-04-2009, 02:13 PM	#26
RobertSlotte Pianissimo User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 205	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System Sofus, You say you like Nordlands and that you are his friend. Do not take this the wrong way but let me ask you: Do you think you are helping your "friend" in his newfounded business buy all the posts you have posted in this thread? :( The only thing Nordlands is claiming is that the mp´s gives different sound and feel when playing....he does not say it gives you an octave to your range. And I have to say from experiense that extra mass gives you different sound and feel...so why do you want to sabotage his business? And pls do NOT say that you do not want to do that...becouse you have for sure posted a LOT of negativety about his products. Yes Sofus I know we are friends but I was surprised to se you post this kinds of posts here....You say that you feel it is important to speak whats on your mind and I fore sure understand that becouse that is what I am doing right now. __________________ THE TRUMPETS SHALL SOUND! Robert Slotte Bach Model 43 Bb Yamaha 8310z Bb B&S Eb-Trumpet B&S D-Trumpet Gezen A/B piccolo Last edited by RobertSlotte; 07-04-2009 at 02:16 PM.

07-04-2009, 03:12 PM	#28
RobertSlotte Pianissimo User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 205	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System This does not feel good...I like both Nordland and Sofus....I still think Sofus are a bit to hard on Nordland right now :( Hey Sofus, at least admit that you for sure does NOT help Nordland in his business with what you have been writing here. At least then I get a bit more respect back....In my eyes you are still trying to sabotage :( Not the BEngt Sofus I know from Facebook :( I am a bit saad :( __________________ THE TRUMPETS SHALL SOUND! Robert Slotte Bach Model 43 Bb Yamaha 8310z Bb B&S Eb-Trumpet B&S D-Trumpet Gezen A/B piccolo Last edited by RobertSlotte; 07-04-2009 at 03:27 PM.

07-04-2009, 03:41 PM	#30
RobertSlotte Pianissimo User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 205	Re: Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System No more comments from me!!! I am sorry to say I deleted you from my Facebook friends now....and YES!!! I AM sad about that :( I liked to chat to you :( __________________ THE TRUMPETS SHALL SOUND! Robert Slotte Bach Model 43 Bb Yamaha 8310z Bb B&S Eb-Trumpet B&S D-Trumpet Gezen A/B piccolo Last edited by RobertSlotte; 07-04-2009 at 03:51 PM.

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