dcstep

I've got a love-hate relationship going with the dedicated marque forums. I like being able to go one place to read about Bach, Schilke, Kanstul, ZeuS, etc., BUT if you dare question some factoid given as gospel by the marque-lovers, then you risk a lot of rath. Oh well, good thing I'm not thin-skinned.

I'm afraid that some people think they "own" various forumns and they're uncomfortable with meaningful discussion of the brand. This probably discourages others from joining the discussion. I think we lose when that happens, but it's probably unavoidable.

I applaud TM's attempt to stimulate discussion of all brands, despite these "issues."

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

Thevor

dave,

If you want to engage or challenge a statement in a dedicated forum, cut and paste the quote and bring it to the Wild West forum where everyone can enjoy. Debate and challenge to your hearts content. We don't all have to agree with eveything said and there certainly has been a vehicle created so that a premise or statement can be opened up to disagreement or debate.

Be warned everyone, should it get nasty or ugly...... it's the Cage.

__________________
53' Olds Ambassador

Ash

I totally agree with dcsteps posts. Especially dealers *coughzeuscough* like to play up the horns. It's acting like a shameless plug.

__________________
1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

Reverend

dcstep,

Hello to my friend up in northern Texas!

I understand where you are coming from. Some people are just passionate, perhaps overly so, concerning the product that they believe in. As you stated, I am glad that you are not "thin-skinned!" It certainly helps!

I, personally, try to be fair and honest. If you can think of any means by which we can make others feel more comfortable posting in the dedicated forums, then by all means, let me know! I'm certainly open to suggestions!

Ash,

*coughzeuscough* that's a good one!

Shameless plug? You're probably right! However, we are dealers, and we just happen to believe in what we promote. Heck, if we (Zeus dealers and ZeuS players) don't "toot our own horn," who will? Actually, I think that just about all dealers, or players, of instruments will "promote" their own, whether it be in dedicated forums, or anywhere else! Wouldn't you promote something that you believed in, especially if it is your business or livelihood? I certainly hope so!

But as dcstep indicated, feathers do seem to ruffle fairly easy in the dedicated forums. To the extent that I am able, I will try to keep the "feather ruffling" to a minimum! EVERYONE is welcome in the forum that I moderate!

Blessings,

__________________
Michael Guevara, DMM
Cinco Ranch Conservatory of Music
www.cincoranchmusic.com
Golden Trumpet Ministries
Authorized Stage 1 and Fides Dealer, Texas and Southern US

Ash

I understand that completely, I just think that, like dcstep, that the clamp gets put down pretty quick on ant-horn posts. BTW, sorry if I sounded angry/mean in my last post. It's a late night :wink:

__________________
1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

Reverend

No prob at all!

Blessings,

__________________
Michael Guevara, DMM
Cinco Ranch Conservatory of Music
www.cincoranchmusic.com
Golden Trumpet Ministries
Authorized Stage 1 and Fides Dealer, Texas and Southern US

Uncle Albert

I hafta agree Dave. Not just in dedicated forms though.
..edit. CERTAIN entities must only be seen in the very best light. a trumpet community without politics will NEVER EXIST

dcstep

I'm thinking that the jury is still out on the free speech issue. I've not received any notes from the moderators here saying to tone it down, as I have on another forum when I was only involved with what I thought was just a spirited discussion. They didn't remove my posts, but they did make me mad with their too quick rap with the ruler. (As I used to say to my mother, "didn't hurt, didn't hurt, na, na, na-na, naa" right before she slugged me).

Seems like I remember only one thread disappearing here and I'm not even sure that I recall correctly. I must admit that whatever it was I didn't miss it. Maybe it just moved to "Steel Cage", which I don't frequent.

I really think that moving things that get too heated to the Steel Cage is an eligant solution. It encourages free speech, but doesn't require the rest of us to wade through point and counterpoint of a thread that's degenerated into a p***ing contest. If we allow the rancor to reside in the main "serious" forums, I think we risk running off good prospects. I know that if I browse and see nothing but p**s and venom, I'm not inclined to post, or even come back. I do want lively, respectful discussion and feel like that's largely the normal operating mode here.

Maybe I've missed something. Have threads been disappearing here? With the Steel Cage it seems like simply moving a too-heated discussion there is the way to go. Leave some tracks back in the dedicated forum that there's a fight going on over in SC and I think that everyone should be reasonably happy, so long as the moderators are not too quick on the trigger. We wouldn't want the SC ploy to become a way to keep legitimate questioning out of the dedicated horn forums.

Anyway, it's good to see this place gaining a voice of its own. I still enjoy TH and some other choices, but this is certainly a viable and enjoyable site. I don't really have a solution for the negatives of the dedicated marque forums, but it's good to see that I'm not the only one that's noticed the "problem."

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

trpguyy

To my knowledge, only one thread has been removed (the "Spider" issue), and a written statement from TM is still in the Steel Cage explaining the reason for deleting the thread.

Tootsall

Yeah, some threads have "disappeared" and for various reasons. About two? weeks ago while in a private chat, TM asked Thevor and I if we minded terribly if the "Comebacker" forum were moved into the "general" area. The reasoning was that there had not been a lot of recent activity and apparently multiple forums were eating up webspace. Being the reasonable guys we are, we agreed; after all, WE aren't paying for the webspace.

At the same time some other forums were relocated (Monette and others); this was done for similar reasons and that is all explained in general terms on the "front page".

When I got back from a 5 day ski vacation Thursday I was surprised to see that TM had taken "unofficial retirement". I knew that he(?) was upset with efforts to dig out his real identity but hadn't realized HOW upset he was. I saw the message posted by "administrator" in which this was also explained as well as the removal or relocation of TM's posts or threads. I believe this explains MOST of the other disappearances.

Of course, we are aware of the "spider" problem and elimination of that thread.

I can't disagree that there is a form of censorship; on the other hand the rules of society that we be civil, (except in the Cage...and even there we should be "treating others as we would be treated ourselves"), that we don't "go trolling" for flame wars, that we don't use multiple identities to "whipsaw" someone, etc. should be clearly understood by all. As Uncle Albert says, it is unlikely that there will ever be a "panel" in which either there aren't any "flame wars" OR where there isn't any type of censorship (I like to think of them as common sense rules for civilized behaviour). (Of course there "ain't nothin' as uncommon as common sense"!)

TM set up the website aiming for a higher quality of discussion about trumpet-related matters than what is commonly seen in other sites: so far his goals have been realized (waiting for Larry or Noel to come up with another of their gems!). It is unfortunate that at times it is necessary to "ban" someone, remove non-constructive posts, etc. However, the alternative seems to be the "Lord of the Flies" approach that we've seen elsewhere; and Heaven knows there are enough websites around with that kind of approach!

Now, with respect to any "dedicated" forums for manufacturers, I agree that there are some brands who may use "their" forum as "Madison Avenue Copy" outlets. Great...if you don't want to read it, don't go into those forums! If you do want to really discuss those horns and find that the moderator of that forum won't let you speak your mind without jumping on your case, bring it OUT of that forum into one where a non-representative is the moderator. Just keep it polite and all will be happy. Start getting "off topic" or flamebaiting and watch it get hustled into the Steel Cage. That's not censorship; that's simply making certain that the website remains a place where youth and those who have very high ideals of decency are still welcome without being made to feel uncomfortable or without diminishing a degree of respect for serious trumpet players.