Solar Bell

40cal;

Baltimore, a tough city!

Am I missing something here? Or do these peace officers have some 'splainin' to do?

http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/9...l.html?taf=bal

trumpetgirl612

umm maybe they were accused of soliciting???

or maybe they just matched someone's descpription????

who knows

40cal

1. If the incident happened the way the link reports, then the cops are wrong
2. The media is often wrong.
3. The only reason to bring up the fact that one of the two person's parents are cops is to garner sympathy for the "suspects" in the case
4. I have arrested/cited cops kids for incidents ranging from no license, theft, fleeing police in a motor vehicle, DUI, no insurance etc.... so having cops as parents really doesn't mean a whole lot.

http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/9233802/detail.html

I dunno, you grab at me in an apparent attempt to a. rip the citation out of the book B. take some of my equipment, there will be some corrective action taken.

I withhold judgement since we only have 1 side of the story right now.

Siegtrmpt

Lost or not, when a cop issues a directive to move on it's a wise idea to follow it. Get some directions a few miles away. They didn't and paid a price for it. While I'm reluctant to fault a city cop, who probably takes crap on a nightly basis, it does sound like this situation could have been handled better.

Manny Laureano

Listening to the account and the kids' voices as they tell the story, understanding that the girls parents are peace officers my admitted prejudice is for the kids in this case. The link that 40 cal provides give a different story, however, from the perspective of the arresting officer.

Question for 40cal: if you were writing someone up and they reached out and tried to do what the arresting officer claims, can you describe what would happen physically after that? Would an action where a suspect (ignorant of the right term) tries to violently do something like that cause you to step back with gun drawn, or would you signal for your partner to come help you restrain the suspect? I'm wondering what judgements and procedures would be standard amongst officers.

The whole thing seems very odd to me but I still side with the kids, I guess. I've done exactly that stupid thing of running a stop sign because I didn't look where I was going because I was distracted.

Could it be the kids ran the stop sign, knew it and made up the "being lost" story when the officer approached them, assuming their story is wrong and the officer approached them FIRST?

My brain hurts...

ML

rjzeller

Er...lemme get this straight? They got arrested for trespassing on a public street? How do you tresspass on a public street?

Sounds like it may have not been the right time of month to bother that dear officer.

(Did I just say that???)

Solar Bell

RJ wrote:
and Mikey wrote in another thread:
.


Youse guys are gonna get the Lexie really steamed at youse.

-cw-

Alex Yates

Oh please........stupid officer yes, but enough with the "time of the month" crap. There are plenty of men and women with CMS (constant MS) or just a bad attitude. For every female officer acting stupidly, there are tons of male officers doing stupid, rude, unprofessional things. Let's blame it on their tiny "pistols" then.

Heh, heh Chuck. I am not steamed, but surprised. I know it is all in good fun, but I admit to being a bit bothered that they were not looked at as officers ONLY instead of their gender being dragged into it.

rjzeller

You baited her Chuck! You baited her!!

and she bit.

Okay, sorry. I just couldn't resist. Maybe it was a tad off, but when people do something that stupid, I figure they're game for anything I throw at them.

40cal

If I am in fear of being assaulted, or am being assaulted we have to follow a force continuum. Continuums vary from dept. to dept.

Most that I am aware of break basically break it down in to 5 steps.

1. No resistance
2. Passive resistance
3. Active resistance non-assaultive
4. Active resistance assualtive
5. Lethal

So, depending on the particular dept's policy the level of force one can use varies.
1. Obviously no force needed
2. Empty hand techniques, EX: pressure points wristlocks, joint locks, and chemical irritant
3. Strikes, stuns,(common peroneal strikes, brachial stun) lateral vascular neck restraints (and all others up to this point)
4. Impact weapons
5. Firearm, high vertical baton strikes, impact weapon to other lethal areas, neck, head, groin, & coccyx

This is no particular dept's force continuum, just an example.

As you can see, if someone grabs at me, or appears that they are attempting to strike at me, then I am at Active Resistance-Assaultive.

There are other considerations too. What are the specific tactical circumstances? If I am fighting someone on a bridge with a 100' drop, my level of force will escalate more quickly. Multiple aggressors? Disparity of size and/or level or perceived level of ability?

So an officer who is 5' tall, 105 pounds and the aggressor is 6'2" built like a linebacker, guess what? *bang* *bang*.

I feel this information is pertinent to the case, and also applies to my answer that without knowing the specific circumstances it is hard to say.

Most likely, I would attempt to disengage and go to an intermediate weapon like a chemical agent or baton.

There is always at least one gun in a fight with a cop.

Another tidbit to consider. I have had people just blow up over a simple ticket, or become irrational.

I was writing one of about a dozen vehicles that had driven on the shoulder. I cited one driver and advised him he was free to leave. The driver stayed on the shoulder for another 10-15 minutes waiting for me to finish citing the other drivers. I approached his vehicle and asked if their was a problem. He stated he wanted my name and badge number. OK by me, especially since I had already given it to him. I advised the party of that fact and he insisted I give him my pen so he could write my name and badge number down. I advised the party that 1. I was not going to give him my pen & 2. He already had my name and badge # 3. He needed to leave. (I have seen pictures of cops w/pens/pencils in their faces so nobody who is obviously upset with the cops is getting something like that from me)

Well, as you may well imagine, the party refused to leave. I told the party probalby no less that 1/2 dozen times that he needed to leave. I even told him that if he did not leave, he would be disobeying a lawful order from a peace officer and he would be arrested. Of course, he didn't leave. I advised him he was under arrest and he was to exit his vehicle. He refused. I told him multiple times to exit his vehicle, he still refused. Well, we ask, we tell, we make. The party was assisted from the vehicle and then fought with my partner and me.

Relevance? All this joker had to do was leave. He had all the information he wanted, in writing.

I stop at a stalled vehicle. Due to the circumstances I become suspicious about the ownership of the vehicle. As I was escorting the driver back to my car, the passenger attempts to get out of his vehicle. <----this is bad. I instruct the driver to place his hands on the hood so I can frisk him for weapons. Oh well, the fight is on. What is my tacitcal situation?

I am alone. I have a radio, handcuffs and a pistol (I was in investigations at the time), I am in the middle of a collection lane on interstate 94, I am outnumbered, and it is about -15 below. I find out later that this clown was sitting on top of a loaded gun and some meth.

Does my level of force escalate more quickly in this situation? You bet.


I know this was a long answer to a short question.

Generally for someone to go to jail on a charge like that one of a few things has to happen.

You are in a zero tolerance zone
You talked yourself (or yelled and screamed) in to a trip to jail
The cop was having a bad day

Now I must admit, I am not familiar with the city ordinances in Baltimore, but how one gets a trespassing on a street is beyond me.

PS Manny pointed out this aspect. Obviously if the cop comes out and starts screaming at them, yelling, or whatever that does set the tone for the encounter. Likewise, if the suspects do the same, they set the tone for the encounter as well.