Manny Laureano

dear folks,

I have a serious question about which I'd like to have as good a discussion as we can. It's not a joke, it's not rhetorical... i really wanna know.

On the oTHer website a fellow for his first post wrote, as title to the thread, a question which included a thinly veiled "effinheimer". It was clear that he was using the effinheimer as the "uck" were replaced with asterisks. Several people, myself among them, wrote things like "way to go on your fist post, pal" and basically said the swearing was unnecessary even though somewaht censored. The thread has been recently retitiled and the has "messing up" instead of the effinheimer.

Here's the part that I find so disturbing: subsequent to the title change the student replied and apologized yet seemed incredulous that anyone would object. His point was that he'd never encountered any internet forum where anybody cared about profanity. Further, he said that at his school they are very lax about profanity as well. Another poster provided the real punchline when he basically said TH was unfortunately filled with a bunch of religious zealots whose mission it seemed was to impose their unrealistic value system on everyone else. Essentially, get over it, everybody does it.

Since I don't post regarding nonmusical subjects there anymore I bring the discussion here and solicit the opinions primarily of the younger posters on this board. I'm most curious about the opinions of the college set.

My position is that while I agree there are few people that swear frequently or infrequently there is a difference in the sense of propriety between the generations. I don't think it has to do with religion. Rather. it's about personal standards. Yup, I swear. Whom do I swear around? People I know and in private.

I'll never forget meeting a young trumpeter who, the very first time he met and spoke with me, peppered his speech with a litany of curse words that ranged from adjective, verb, and noun. It was pretty surprising since this guy knew nothing about me other than I played trumpet. I can't ever imagine meeting Vacchiano, Herseth, Voisin, etc. and using language right off the bat this fellow used.

Are swear words just words with little meaning? Are we so bereft of an ability to use language expressively in public that swearing is the easy route to take? Is it laziness or just the easiest way to express yourselves? Is there pressure to swear constantly? Is there some kind of perception that young folk are subject to if they don't swear? What's the purpose of language, coarse and refined?

Again, if the students could weigh in on this I'd be most appreciative. As you know, I conduct a youth symphony (primarily high school students) and I just don't hear these kids using coarse language during breaks or before/after rehearsals or during retreats. So, the 'net really has revealed itself of a whole 'nother planet with rules that I don't get. That's why I'm coming to y'all for help in understanding.

ML

Tootsall

Manny, I know exactly what you're talking about. FWIWCFM .... I think kids in school are more exposed to swearing than in the past; while I won't blame all of the increase on cussing on the music I do believe that a lot of it comes from our "cultural" acceptance of (c)rap music and it's several variations. You just can't fill the airwaves with the kind of language (or images!) you hear on many of those so-called "music"-videos without desensitizing the audience.

There is also the respect component. My kids started coming home from school in junior high saying "Dave wants us to get all this math done over the weekend". "Who is Dave?", I'd ask. "Oh, that's our math teacher... he tells us to use his first name". Now, when I (and certainly you) were younger you called your teachers "MR.", "Mrs.", or "Miss" (or possibly "Sister").... and you NEVER forgot it! I'll bet you get replies from quite a few teachers about how much cussing they hear in the schools and how they are powerless to prevent it!

Swearing is also a highly cultural thing. You are doubtless aware of what types of words are used in your home community for swearing. I recently had a senior (semi-retired) consulting engineer here at work who was doing some study work for me. He is a highly skilled professional who comes from a different culture (French-Canadian) and his language was speckled with the "F-bomb" too... he thought absolutely nothing of it because in the French culture using our "four-letter words" isn't considered SERIOUS swearing. If I'd said something sacriligious back to him, however, I'm sure he would have been highly offended. English-based culture tends to use either sex acts or scatology as it's favourite cuss-words while the French use words and expressions coming from religion. Germanic-based cultures probably have something different again. Asians (from my experience) base their swearing on "highly personal anatomical features".

I find that different social situations also have their own "degree" of swearing that is considered "acceptable" or "not acceptable". If you were at a meeting of a University Senate I think you'd find that you wouldn't hear too many swear words. If, however, you attended a union meeting (Teamsters, Construction Workers, Stevedores, etc.) you might hear more than a few!

Let's face it... not all kids have been brought up with the same attention to what is considered socially acceptable by their parents. They really do carry this "attitude" through their lives in the rat-race and some days it seems like "the rats are winning". The concentrated effort seems to be "just get through school any way you can" rather than "strive for excellence in ALL things" as it used to be. Our society is a reflection of that attitude.

(OK, that last one is a "chicken-and-egg" argument but I think you get my drift)

Manny Laureano

Well, that's my biggest concern.

Is respect something that is just of little concern today? I include adults in this equation, by the way. On the 'net, I don't find adults to be any better unfortunately. It's not just young people. However, since they represent the future and the standards of behavior that are one day to follow us, I was curious to get their perspectives.

Good points, I think, Toots.

ML

Alex Yates

I find, in my experiences with younger folks, is that they are just not being parented anymore. They are parented by material things, the television, the computer, explicit music, etc. but not by their parents. Some parents, if you say anything about their child's inappropriate behavior, will blame everyone except their child. I once let a parent know that their child was the rudest student I ever taught and that he was constantly bringing up inappropriate subjects when trying to strike up conversation with me. The student even warned me that his mother doesn't like anyone trying to tell her how to raise her children. Needless to say, I don't teach him anymore. He is also having major behavioral problems in school (even though he is VERY bright). He has every material comfort you can think of, but do you think he appreciates any of it? Neah...... and he can continue being a brat because mommy thinks it's just fine as long as he doesn't interfere in her life's activities. Pffffff.....poppycock!

I know what Palmolive dish soap tastes like......and that was just for saying "freak". Anything close to a swear word was fair game and not tolerated in our home. Maybe that tradition needs to be brought back......
Palmolive is some nasty tastin' stuff and takes forever to go away.

Reminds me of a funny Carlin joke.....

Parent: "I'll wash your mouth out with soap!"

Child: "I'll blow bubbles out my a**!"

sonic

Manny wrote: "Are swear words just words with little meaning?"

My sons, now 21 and 23, were raised in a home where they heard occasional swearing. My wife and I always reinforced the idea that words have power and meaning, but that both are lost by excessive or inappropriate use. In regard to the loss of meaning, excessive or inappropriate use of swearing resembles the excessive or inappropriate use of the word "like"-- like, it becomes like the equivalent of like "umm". The loss (or misuse) of the power of swearing is even more detrimental to communication. Our boys were always told that appropriate swearing was used for extreme emphasis, and often was the reflection of extreme emotion. This could mean anger, outrage, fear, or even joy, but it always was meant to be a large font, bold exclamation point that indicated "I want you to pay very close attention to these words and think about what provoked them." This was a lesson which took time for our sons to learn and understand, and indeed during their more rebellious days they sometimes purposely ignored the lesson. But I am proud to say that now both sons are able to fully express themselves using language ranging from that of choir boys to sailors as they judge is appropriate for the audience and the issue. And I usually agree with their vocabulary choices. Swear words do have power and meaning, and as such are valuable, but only if that power and meaning is used judiciously and appropriately.

Toots wrote: "There is also the respect component."

I agree, up to a point. For over 20 years I have taught undergraduate, medical, and graduate students. The undergraduate and medical students always refer to me as "Dr.", as this usually occurs in a formal setting. For those who have worked with me in my laboratory, this barrier is removed by me. My feeling is that if we're in the trenches together, then we should be on a first-name basis. For graduate students, I try to remove the barrier of formality immediately. When these students complete their program, they will have the same initials after their name as I do-- they will be my peers (albeit much younger ones). I feel that they need to join the club during their time in graduate school. Again, the social setting also plays a role. My closest colleagues, as well as the students, realize that in a formal seminar or at a professional meeting reversion to the more formal "Dr." is appropriate. We all do make these adjustments at some time-- most spouses have pet names for each other for private settings that would not likely be used at a formal event. In fact, this is a manifestation of respect.So much like my take on swearing, formality can be an expression of respect, whereas more relaxed interactions can be an expression of friendship or affection. And each has its appropriate setting and use.

Now let's get back to trumpet . . .

40cal

I was riding a Metro Transit bus last night at my part-time job and I heard (I had no choice, this guy was loud) from the back of the bus a guy and gal talking. The guy was about 40, same with the gal. Every other word out of this guy's mouth was f*ck, and the "N" word.

I'm sure this guy is around kids at some point during his day, whether they be teenagers or younger. This is how this stuff starts. When kids hear it at home, on televison, radio/music and at school, how do you compete with that?

I have heard the same if not worse from young teens. They feel they can act with impunity and they talk like it.

__________________


“If there must be trouble, let it be in my day so that my child may have peace.”

Thomas Paine 1737-1809

“That’s all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more,” Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd

Manny Laureano

"Now, let's get back to trumpet"

No thanks, I already practiced two hours and have a lesson to teach in an hour and a half. That's why I put this in the lounge, an area that deals with most of the other things in life.

At any rate, the card-carrying adults, so far, seem to agree it's a sense of context and situation that determines when swearing occurs or doesn't. I think that's the most important point: has the younger generation dispensed with propriety when it comes to language? Were we as bad as they are at the kind of judgement that is needed to make the call of when to curse and when to show restraint? If we weren't any better, when did things change societally?

ML

gzent

It was just part of being 'cool' when I was a teenager, and like most behavior at that age, not a lot of thought was put into it.

__________________
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation

uatrmpt

I think it's sympton of the permissiveness found elsewhere in society. For the most part, kids (I hate to say that as I'm only 22) are going to do what they want when they are away from their parents, regardless of what they have been taught. They can choose to follow their parents' teaching or not. I think, though, that all would agree that peer influence is stronger than parental influence. Kids want to fit in, and if they're around those that cuss, they will. Parents are giving their kids all the "stuff" in the world, except for discipline. Schools can't discipline anymore (trust me, in or out of school suspension doesn't work -- it's just time off). There's probably not a prime-time tv show that is cuss-free. You've got to combat profanity in movies and music. We're not even touching nudity and sexuality. Since the war on God started in the 50's, we've lost our moral compass as an American society and we're becoming increasing like the European countries and Japan, even more conservative than us, is starting to become like us. We're a physically and morally obese nation, giving in to every sort of sensuality that comes along.

__________________
--Matt--

gzent

Matt - I agree, you are wise beyond your years.

__________________
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation