Liad Bar-EL

Is there a technical name for the metal plates that are soldered in the bend of the bell and the bend of the tunning slide which help darken the sound?

Also, do you know if these 'plates' can be added on horns later on in the life of the horn or does it require thicker tubbing for the solder to take effect?

Do you think that Kanstul would/could do this on the Kanstul 1510 C trumpet?

Liad Bar-EL

gzent

Sheet bracing, perhaps?

I wouldn't assume that simply adding sheet bracing will 'darken' a trumpet's sound the way you desire. In general, it will probably tighten the slots, it might give it more resistance and it might reduce the high frequency harmonics of the trumpet's sound. It could also improve or lesson the projection of the horn, depending on how its done.

You can add these on any horn if you have the money. It will require that there be raw brass to solder the braces onto.

Since Kanstul has this on some models already, sure they can do this and would do it if you pay them. I doubt they will guarentee how the horn plays/sounds afterward. IMO, sheet bracing is a tricky science that requires a lot of experimenting to achieve the desired result.

Greg

PS - If you want a C trumpet with a very dark tone you could always try an oversized heavy mouthpiece like a Bach 1 Megatone. Of course, the magatone simply cuts out the upper overtones, it doesn't enhance the lower ones.

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robbie

dont they already have a c trumpet with those in place i think it could be the 1510a.
i play on the kanstul 1500a which is the Bb version of what your talking about, and darker sound is the wrong word to use in my opinion, i'd say more focused sound would be a better description.i only have this horn a couple of months and really love the way it blows and feels.also it looks really cool too,especially in the brushed lacquer finish i got.

rob

gzent

Liad,

Here is another way to go, a C Cornet made by Getzen:

http://www.getzen.com/cornet/custom/3810.shtml

I wouldn't mind having one of these myself.

or how about a Monette?
http://www.monette.net/newsite/instruments_cornet.htm

or even a Kanstul:

http://www.kanstul.net/pages/instrum.../zkc1535m.html

Schilke makes one as well.

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bandman

I call that a weighted brace. If you are interested in adding it to an existing instrument I suggest you contact Jason Harrelson at Harrelson trumpets.

http://www.harrelsontrumpets.com/index.htm

Jason is a master craftsman and can add anything you want to your trumpet. He also has the ability to talk to you about what you want to achieve and will tell you if adding these braces will result in the desired change.

feel free to e-mail or even call him. He is a wonderful person who is more than willing to help any fellow musician.

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Liad Bar-EL

I want to thank you for all of your suggestions.

Tell me, do weighted bottom valve caps darken the sound to any significant level or is it just a sales gimmic?

Liad Bar-EL

gzent

Same comment as above. Sometimes they can improve out of tune 1-3 and 1-2-3 notes.

Changing the mass of a trumpet will definately affect the response, efficiency and frequency spectrum that the horn produces.

Stating with certainty that adding mass at certain points will have certain results is a dicy proposition. It takes a LOT of heavy-duty mathematical analysis to be able to make those predictions with much accuracy. That's why most designers go at it experimentally to learn how adding/subtracting mass affects their horns.

However, exactly how adding/subtracting mass affects one trumpet design probably won't be totally repeatble on a different trumpet design. Its not black magic, even though it sounds like it. Its just that the physics involved make it very hard to predict exactly what effect changing the horn can have.

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Manny Laureano

Liad,

You have a misconception about what adding weighted material to horn does.

When dave Monette started doing that he went very gradually and purposefully with each aspect. The first was the weight of the instrument in general. he realized that there were several parts that were being left out of the equation that helped to add more fundamental and stability to his instrument's nature. It's not a question of "darkness' as most people incorrectly believe. It's a question of more fundamental and more stability.

The valve caps were part of a larger, well-balanced, and thoughtful process. The imitators have taken many of the external aspects of Dave's ideas and included them in their "designs" and the rest is what you see everywhere these days.

The reason it sounds "dark" is because most people that play don't play with the kind of efficiency to get the kind of clarity that was meant for the design concept to be at its maximum. So, the result is a stuffy, woolen sound that is referred to as dark.

So, for some it's a gimmick and for others it's purposeful design.

ML

Liad Bar-EL

Nice post, Manny; however, I am using this term of "dark" very loosely to describe only one very small part of the sound that I desire.

I may have "a misconception about what adding weighted material to horn does", but my perception of what goes into the making of the horn to get the sound that I desire goes far beyond what Monett can do and it is for this reason that I rejected him and many others for making my Temple Trumpets.

IMO, there are even more important aspects of making a horn than "purposeful design" and here we go with intent, objectives, meaning and all the other terms to describe the aspects of an artist expressing himself on canvass or in the making of a horn. One can see this in why certain people like/reject a certain artist and why some people gravitate to one particular artist instead of another.

To avoid getting you and anyone else upset, I will end this subject here.

Liad Bar-EL

Manny Laureano

There's no getting upset here, Liad.

Simply put, I understand exactly what you mean. If there's a concept that one has then you go with what amplifies that concept. If you wish for something other than that concept you go for that "something else" no matter what it is.

Dave's horns don't sound like anybody else's (that I've played). What it sounds like is what I like now and have for many years. It's not everyone's cup of tea or taste. I don't think Dave built them to suit anyone's taste but his own which is what I thought you were inferring. Fortunately he encountered enough people that did like it so he could become a successful instrument maker.

What else could anyone want? It's nice to have a big enough world with choices for everybody who wants to play. I don't think there's an instrument maker who can't satisfy at least one person's taste. But, at least, the maker should satisfy hmself.

ML