MJ

Does anyone know anything about the Bach 211 bell.

I'm selling a Bach D trumpet. Serial number in the 55,000s and I want to put together a description.

I checked out the Bach Loyalist page but don't see the 211 listed

http://www.bachloyalist.com/trumpet_bells.htm

gringoloco

PM Johntpt. He knows a lot about this kind of thing. BTW- How much are you asking?

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Be well,
Rob

Schwab

Hi MJ, I have a NY Bach D trumpet with a 211 bell, it looks like a small Bb trumpet though, not like the one you have pictured. It is the oldest Bach horn I've seen with a factory installed first slide hook (it is a third slide ring cut and spread apart).

Dr. Valve has a M bore NY Bach C trumpet with a 211 bell on his site.

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Dylan Schwab
Stage 1 New York

Johntpt

All right, I'll take a stab at this one. This horn is a small bore (.448) Bach D trumpet, which were popular from the 1930s until around the early 1970s when "newer" designs of D trumpets became standard, such as the Schilke E3L and the Bach long bell 239 .459 bore D trumpet. In fact, besides the things we would today play on a D trumpet, players used to use these horns for all the big Bach excerpts before piccolo trumpets became common in the 1960s and 1970s. The standard bell on these small bore Bach D trumpets was the 236, found on probably 90% of these horns that come up for sale. As special options Bach offered a couple of other bells for this horn: the 244, which was larger than the 236, and the 211 which was smaller. Here are descriptions of these bells taken from an early 1980s Bach catalog that I lifted from my high school band room many years ago:

236: Tighter and brighter sound than 239. For C and D trumpets.
244: Vindobona D - Dark and warm.
211: Slightly tighter and brighter than 236.

Extremely threadbare descriptions, yet they get right to the point. I have owned several Mt Vernon D trumpets with either 236 or 244 bells, and I ended up getting rid of all of them in short order. For me the 236 bell has an edgy and almost crass sound, and don't even get me started on intonation. The 244 bell horns are better IMO, but still don't play as well as the more modern Bach 239 D trumpets or other Schilke and Yamaha models. I have also seen C trumpets with 236 or 211 bells, but I've never played them.

I've never played a 211 bell horn. I've seen Dylan's horn on his website, and there was a NY Bach 211 D that was sold by a Minnesota Orchestra section member a few years ago - those are the only two that I've seen before. I read somewhere that Bill Vacchiano's main horn for most of his years in the NY Phil was a NY Bach 211 D trumpet, but don't quote me on that. This horn you have for sale was built in the very early 1970s, and could have been built for Vacchiano or one of his students. It is certainly quite rare and in great condition, and it might be years before another 211 bell horn comes up for sale.

Let me add that the fact that I don't like the 236 doesn't mean that I wouldn't like the 211. In fact, I think that getting a model of trumpet to work involves finding the right balance, or sweet spot between bore size, leadpipe, and bell size, rather than just larger bore and larger bell are better. The Schilke piccolo works so well for many players because of the small bell, and wouldn't work with a larger bell. One of my favorite horn designs is the Selmer G trumpet which has a really small bore (something like .411) and a small bell, but the combination on that horn really works. I don't care much for the Bach 239 bell on C trumpets, but it works great on the D and Eb trumpets. I could go on and on, but I'm starting to bore you by now.

BTW How did you know that I know something about these things, Rob?

I hope this sheds some light on the 211 bell, and that at least someone finds this mildly interesting!

JU

Schwab

Good stuff John! Here is a photo of my horn:



It has a 7 leadpipe and is an interesting horn. It plays very well with mouthpieces with a 117 backbore, but intonation is so bad with any other backbores it is almost unplayable.

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Dylan Schwab
Stage 1 New York

Bill Dishman

JU (John?) - I am in agreement totally with you regarding your comment about balance between bore size, bell size, key of the horn. The only other thing I like to keep in mind is the playing characteristics of the performer. Some people have great success with combinations that do not really work for me.

My favorite horns for myself have the larger bell tapers
65 G Bb
238HG C
239 long bell Eb/D
256 C
255 Rotary C

Fory myself, they work great. For some of my colleagues they are just OK.

Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida

gringoloco

John,
I heard through the American trumpet player a Mexican Orchestra grape vine.

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Be well,
Rob

wiseone2

The 304 bell is also not listed.
Wilmer

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Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear.
S.Suark 1951

wiseone2

This horn looks like my Eb/D 304 bell NY Bach trumpet.
Wilmer

__________________
Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear.
S.Suark 1951

MJ

Great information John. Thank you very much!

I forgot to mention this horn comes with a tuning slide that puts it in the key of C.

If anyone is interested in it send me a PM before it hits ebay.

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