Vulgano Brother

So...I've got this old Bach D trumpet, 236 bell, and the open notes are out of tune, regardless of which mouthpiece/backbore/throat combination I've tried, and I have a huge mouthpiece drawer. Either the g in the staff is too low (95% of the time), or, if the g and c in the staff are in tune, the low c is sharp and feels real funky. E and G above the staff don't count, 'cuz they're suspect on any horn. So...have eliminated mouthpieces and even the tuning slide. It has the right valves in the right order, and allignment is up to Bach standards, so have two questions.

1. Anybody out there with a stock 236 D that played in tune out of the box?
2. Anybody out there figure out how to trick-out one of these puppies so it does play in tune?

My horn does sound great, though, and it would be nice to use it with some sort of confidence.

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bachstrad72

Have you checked out the alignment of the valves? How about any inherent stress in the metal, remedied by having the bell and leadpipe sprung? Any loose solder hanging around inside of the horn? When I got my longbell Eb/D I had to have the bell sprung, after that it's been great.

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~Perry Sutton~
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J. Landress Brass

I have a mod for these horns that will help quite a bit with the intonation problems. Please pm for more info.

Josh

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Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass
Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System
Hand-made Trumpets & Trombones
Hand-made mouthpipes
Mouthpiece alterations
Expert Brass repair and restorations
www.myspace.com/jlandress
516-521-7101

rowuk

The Spada Tuning bell mod seems to cure most of the Bach ailments. All of his horns that I have played (10-15 different combinations and pitches) have had very reasonable intonation.

Actually, no Bachs have any intonation problems. You just need to learn a new fingering chart. You tune to low C, G in the staff is played 1+3, C in the staff 2+3, C# regardless of octave 1+2+3, D regardless of octave 1+3, Eb 2+3, E 1+2, G on top of the staff 1+2, A above the staff 3 and high C depends on the mouthpiece.
Clarke studies are very effective for learning this simplified fingering system - I wonder why no other manufacturer has discovered it!
Isn't it amazing that the industry "standard" has been able to get away with this for SO MANY YEARS? That is the only thing consistent with this brand of horn.

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

camelbrass

Keep it for those pieces in F# major?


Regards,


Trevor

gord-o

I think you should have the valve alignment looked at first, then spend real money if that doesn't take care of the intonation. A smart repair person can possibly take care of the problem for cheap, but if the valve alignment is not the solution, modifications may be in order. FWIW, a few trumpet profs of mine have said that there is no such thing as an in tune D tpt.

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Richard Hastings
Instrument Repair
K&M Music
Sioux Falls, SD

rowuk

I own 2 in tune D trumpets. I define in-tune as not needing alternate fingerings when using the instruments in a concert setting.
One is a stock Windisch rotary valve (built in the mid 50s) and the other is a D/Eb Selmer Radial 2 Degrees(built in the mid 70s) with a tuning bell modification.
I have played several Yamahas, Schilke, Spada modified Bachs and various rotaries that were in tune. I have on the other hand played a ton of other ones that weren't. Valve alignment NEVER helped the intonation-only the consistancy of the blow.
I think the Bach C/D design puts the valve block too close to the mouthpiece. That puts some critical nodes in an area where the bore is not smooth. My Selmer has the proportions of a Bb trumpet with the valves in the middle of the length of the horn (on the D side).

We used to just accept bad intonation 30 (and more) years ago. The manufacturers cranked the instruments out and in general if you ordered it, you had to keep it. There is no need for that any more. If it is out of tune, don't buy it!

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Johntpt

What do you use the 236 for? That model was popular before the introduction of reliable piccolo trumpets in the 60s and 70s, and was used primarily for baroque music with a "piccolo-type" mouthpiece, say a Bach 7E or similar. Anything larger doesn't seem to work on those.

An exception was Mr. Vacchiano, was reportedly played most of the rep in his later years in the NYPO on a NY Bach 211 bell D trumpet. The 211 was even smaller and brighter than the 236.

Since the introduction of the long bell 239 bell D trumpet, the 236 D has almost completely fallen out of use. The 239 horns generally play very well in tune and sound nice in the orchestra.

JU

Vulgano Brother

I don't use it, because it is so out of tune. Where I would like to use it is in the orchestra, because of its sound, compact and sweetly bright. Neither my rotary C nor piston C have that sound. It would also be useful for all those low g's in Handel, but here again, having those c's and g in the staff in tune is a must!

It looks like the first slide over/under conversion with ring was the best investment I've made on the horn, and playing becomes good practice in throwing slides and alternate fingerings.

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