operagost

That doesn't sound like the way a professional instrument maker-- who supposedly doesn't like putting his name on anything less than the best-- puts out product. So are these left-over parts seconds, or simply overstock? If they're overstock, then the horn created from the parts would be virtually the same as a "real" professional model-- except that the parts wouldn't fit together well (being hand-made) and the horn would probably play more poorly than a student horn made with "inferior" parts, but properly fitted. If they're seconds, then all of the above applies, plus the horn is made with "student-grade" parts. I would be skeptical of that story. I would more likely believe that someone like Bach would have taken a Strad design and simply left off the third-valve stop, the first-valve saddle or trigger, amado water keys, and monel pistons (if those last two options were actually available in 1960) rather than use lower-grade alloys or shoddier assembly techniques like other manufacturers.

By the way, save some apostrophes for the rest of us, will ya?

__________________
2006 Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
1987 Conn 100B "Doc Severinsen"
1946 Conn 22B "New York Symphony"

lovevixen555

While I wish I was makeing that up I have read it on several different cites now that had information on VIncent Bach and his business opperations. Seem's that many did not like the idea of the current Student,Intermediate,Pro marketing pattern. Seems that the wife was the one that had most of the influnce onhim as to when he would make student models and how often. From what I read she had to really brow beat him to fill order's for anything other then his Stradavarius line of instruments.

I have run into a few people onthe internet that have had trumpets or trombone's that where made up of various parts from various models of Strad.

Chrysler before they where bought out by Cerberius(sp) had a model of Durango and Dakota that was assembled at the end of the year from all the part's that where over run's in production or that had to be sent back and reworked for quality issues like blemish's that had to be fixed. For the life of me I can not recall the model letter's now. THey had quite and ecentric mix of trim pieces wheels and interio options. TO make it less obvious they where normaly painted in "color keyed" ie one color no contrast.

Another thing I recall Chrysler doing was inthe 60's-70's they would close to shut the plant down and they would buildone of's that where highly customized and or street legal race car's etc.....I have a mentor that still his first car from before he got shipped to Vietnam. It has all kinds of one of's that where not available on standard production car's. For instance it has the exact same engine that Chrysler was usieng in NASCAR that year and I mean right down to the teflon valve seal's. It has a police interceptor external overdrive before they where offered on the after market for the public or as an option on production car's. THis was back when the speed limit was 75MPH and the over drive is a seperate unit that went between the ormal transmission and the drive shaft etc........... Haveing worked in large corperation all but a few years of my life I have seen all kinds of limited production stuff done to use up over run part's or the like......

Oh for those that are not int he industry over-run is when a part of production makes far too many of something. It does not matter if it is part of the corperation or if it is a supplier issue. SOmetimes over-run part's are boxed and sound tot he after market as OEM part's not branded as OEM but it depends on the terms of the contract.

My 1986 Toyota 4Runner was built at the LandCrusier plant when a fire broke out inthe plant where it was normaly assembled. My 4Runner has been to exception 99% of the itme when I would go to get part's for it. The Landcruiser plant made some part's work that it needed from it's land crusier part's because they could not get what they needed fromthe plant that was int he fire. So some of the part's on my 4Runner and small number of other owners are different drasticly. If GM makes less then 500 of a model in a particular configuration they do not need to support it. I have seen about 1000 different vechile in my 5 year's working for GM that where never meant to be sold to private people that some how made it out of the caputured test fleet and into the public's hands. Often it was emission part's that these people needed and couldnot get. Usualy what happened was GM would use part's it had on hand while testing preproduction models. If the design of the finished part was drasticly different then what had been used onthe test fleet then their was a problem. SOme times we where able to help these people and some times we where not.

Vincinet Bach while he sold plenty of instruments was always short on money and always had cash flow problems from all the articles I have read online. No I realise that everyting you read is true but when more then two sources tell a simalar tale then usualy it is close tot he truth.

I also read many of the early Mercury models where built useing Bach Strad parts and just stamped Mercury. A small business can not afford to re-tool constantly re-tooling is the most expensive part of the manufactureing process. You wouldnot believe how expensive cutting tools for CNC mills and such are!!!! You have no idea how costly a die is to make and properly maintain. Their is constant maintence to needed to keep die's and mandrels up to par so they turn out a consistent part. In fact the reason you see so much organge peel inthe pain on General Motor's Pick-up Box's and now other's is because one of the engineer's I worked with realized that is GM put the paint on thick and orage peel like onthe box that they could get something like another 100,000 stamps out of the die's. The problem is that buy doing that the die's are basicly breaking down and putting flaw's in the metal. If they painted properly with a nice flat laying layer of paint the flaw's would show under the pain in the metal. By useing excessive paint and spraying it in an organe peel like effect this covered the flaw's with out the need for body filler or anything like that. THis meant GM could save money on maintaince cost's for the stamping die's and get more stamps from each die before they had to be completly re-worked. THey have to pay skilled trades men to maintain those die's. So their is much that goes on in industry that the average person has no diea of because they decisions are made about 2-3 steps before it get's tot he board room for the CEO or SHare holder's to hear about.

I could go on....Trust me inthe 5 year's I was at GM I worked with or for the top 1% of their managment staff putting out fires relateing to quality,design,and manufactureing! I was in the engineering department and I have a lot of crazy insider stories that would make your head spin.

Schwab

Please cite your sources LV555.

__________________
Dylan Schwab
Stage 1 New York

stchasking

This thread is a load of crap. Just play the Omega and if you like it buy it.
Don't worry about what other people think.

__________________
"I was performing professionally at age 17 and have never had a real job." Allen Vizzutti

http://cdbaby.com/cd/mcking

ewetho

Last Omega I saw was an exact copy of my TR200S except bell engraving. They blend VERY well with Strads (from the same family) but not as open down low or up high. The leadpipe is tight. OK horn though.

Just a different marketing thing.

__________________
Kanstul Chicago 1001 w/ CG Personal GP
Conn 80A w/ CG Personal GP

lovevixen555

Why Schwab???? This might come as a HUGE disapointment to you when I read an article on the internet I usualy do not stop and write down the web site or even save it as a favorite unless I plan to go back their again. Usualy once I have read an article I do not go backa nd re-read it again so no need to save it unless it is work related ie I am putting together a report for work or school related putting together a paper for a prof.!!! This site and trumpet's in general while of keen interest to me is not a subject I devote a lot of hard drive space to int erms of coping articles that Ihave read online or web site's. I general stay up due to my insomnia some nights with no sleep at all for days jsut reading when not careing for my kids or my wife etc..... That is the only up side to being un-employed currently is that it affords me a lot of time for reading. I am sure though that I probably came across this information by useing google though since it is my main search engine of choice for easy things like "Bach Trumpet's, Bach Trumpet Bell's, Bach Trumpet Part's etc........... I normal exhaust a site before moveign on if it looks interesting includeing it's links to other sites so sometime it is a real web or maze trying to find a cite again. Now since I do not own a Bach and was more then likely researching a bell for sale that was unusal and out of my price range I again was not going to pay too much attention to it. I can tell you that I am sure it was not at the Bach Loyalist site since I did not see what I was looking for their.

If you have a huge issue with it then maybe youcould post a source cited APA style or MLA your choice for all of your post's if you are so hot for citeing sources for conversation on an internet forum about trumpet's!!! It is not like I am argueing with Stephen Hawkings on a closed/private internet cite devoted to furthering the understand of how Quantum theory and The General theory of Realativiety play together to create and contain the reality that is the Universe or something!!! I will tell you this since I am considering buying a Bach to play around with if I find myself researching Bach again and find it I will try to remember to save it under my favorites so I can post it here for you. I can understand you being interest if you have your pictures of Vinny hangine onthe wall like my Grand Mother had JFK and FDR photo's onthe wall other wise I do not understand the over zelious grilling!

Schwab

LV555, I was curious because you're posting things that no one else has read before. I didn't say they were false, but I'd like to see the original site where you read them. And that wasn't overzealous grilling, you'll know when that happens!

And you've derailed yet another thread.

__________________
Dylan Schwab
Stage 1 New York

lovevixen555

That is why I said if I find it again I will try to at least save it to favorites. i went through my list of favorites a few minutes ago hopeing that I could find it! i could not. I mostly save repair site's and part's places as I am not planning on writeing a book. I read like crazy though. Just so everyone know's I know I call him VInny all the time but his name was not VIncent either he "Americanized" his true name. that is from Davids Bach page.

Another person I admire greatly for his knoldge of Music History has freq. said that 1/2 of the stuff taken as fact in Musical History books is complete and total fiction or myth passed on by word of mouth and then written down as fact. He is a great writer in terms of his post's. His sentence structure and writeing style are great. I know him as GSMONK and as Greg on some other sites. If ever you want to read some well put together and researched articles his are the ones to read as they are directly related to Music History!!! None of the above stuff came from him but I have read several of his articles that debunked long held images of well known player's in the history of instrument design. In fact their are only two people that I trust enough to take their work or opinions as being solid gold his and OldLou's!!!

While I am actualy a fan of Vincent Bach's designs espcialy the further back one goes I do not believe half the nonsense I hear about the man and his trumpet's. He is not the perverbal "Messiah" of the trumpet industry or of trumpet design. Their are plenty I hold in higher estem then Vincent but that does not take away from his work in any way. I happen to know some preety big people pro-sports and they have most of the same problems I have and deal with many of the same things. Take away their big bank account and they are no different then most of us. In fact a lot of them are so down to earth that it would blow your mind how normal they are away from their sport. If their is one thing I absolutely hate more then anything else in this world it is hype and marketing nonsense especialy when the end user's pimped out like apuppet and becomes part of the marketing machinery of the company he buy's from! That drives me nut's! I am a big believer in letting tings stand for themselfs. Obviously Bach has weathered many storms int he industry but at least half of their reputation is un-founded if one looks objectively at inconsistencies in the product in terms of both their sounds and their hit and miss quality control etc.....In my mind it would be as if Lexus droped their quality control down to that of say Citroen, Ford or Volks Wagen but people kept hypeing them up as the best built Luxury car int he world etc...... FOr some reason the Bach followers are almost cult like in their avoidence of the many issues that have plagued them off and on over the year's. Since Vinny's family has not owned them since like what 1963 or something like that nothing said about today's products even reflectsonhim or his family since it is Bach in name alone.

You know darn well that if someone got on a soap box saying things about the owner of Jupiter Instruments that no one had heard before they would not take any heat or be doubted!!! In fact their would be a bandwagon of hate dropped onthem in spades and it would not raise an eyebrow on the site even if it was all lies! Schilke and Bach are protected at all cost on this site like a religious belief system. I can understand the Schilke since even I love their instruments but Bach???? I believe tht even Schilkes had some issues whent hey where out sourceing valve engines from Yamaha and Yamaha was goofing around with various alloys trying to improve on Monel I think Iheard this from some one on this site and they called it Yam-Alloy. No one once asked for proof of this of source material since it was Yamaha's fault not Schilkes. THeir are a lot of things that we all take for granted based on reputation alone. I am sure that no one her has seen the actual warranty figures for any of the big manufacture's so for all we know their could be some crazy stuff going on from some manufactures and all we have is word of mouth and past experince from friends and our selfs of course.

Their is a very real bias as to who can make a good horn and who can not and the name is the most important factor then the location of the plant! In many way's percieved quality has been determined before the instrument is even in hand. I am fairly convinced that I could take Bach Strad Part's have them hand assembled by someone like Bob Malone stamp the trumpet at haveing been made in China,India, Afganastan pick your country of choice and it would not measure up to anything Bach made! It could sound identical and it would still not sound identical if you follow me because even before play testing the person would already have pre-concieved notions of it being junk. You follow me. Like wise I could take piece of average trumpet in other words something like an Intermediate level Yamaha and stamp Schilke on it and change the origin of manufacture and it would automaticly sound better, play better and be better built then what it was with the Yamaha intermediate label on it! I think a large portion of the people that buy and play trumpets are not very objective at all since no one would ever admit that they liked a cheaper horn that they already had over their new Uber toy that cost them 2-4 times as much as the ax they already had.

Now I am not saying that you do not at times get what you pay for or that various companies do not deserve their great reputations. I am jsut saying that at least 30% or more of some peoples opinion is based on subjective idea's and notions that have nothing to do with reality at all. I think that their is a real lack of objectivity amoung those with big pocket's especialy. Since 9out of 10 people will rationalize a purchase even if they are disapointed because the other's in the same circle they run in do not want to hear that their Uber toy was not all they dreamed it would be and those looking to reach that level to own said Uber toy do not want to hear it either as anyting that does not support their notions is an attack of their dreams reguardless of what reality or something liek hard number's may prove out etc..... I have seen it in many differnet area's of life car's, instrument's, electeronics you name it. What I love is when two products have the same gut's like the same circuit board and part's 100% but are put in two different box's with different names and they get drasticly different reviews fromt he end user's based on the different price point's they are marketed in. Our when two vechiles are 100% identical except for the name on the sheet metal and again they get drasticly different rateing from consumer's based onpreconcieved notions of the vechiles initial build quality based on the name on the sheet metal! Their is a lot of that same type of bias and thinking on this board and most any related to instruments!!

Why would that be I wounder???? Well anytime the customer does not have the ability to say look at the gut's and know what he is getting then what does he have left? Specification sheet???? Spec. sheet tells yo nothing about a trumpet a piece of junk could have the same spec.'s as a well made brandon paper and not play at all. The materials then??? Yep Bach and Schilkes and Getzen are telling me the exact coposition of their copper,brass and nickle sheet materials and giveing me exact diemesions and process information etc.... not!!! Not too many places left to play test a large assortmentof instruments from many manufactures any more either??? If you are lucky to live in a big city then you can maybe hit 7-8 music stores and get an idea of what you want but the rest of us cannot. So what is left??? Fancy brouchures that often have a lot to say about nothing meaningful with flashy pictures and word of mouth from friends and unknown internet user's! Each one telling you something different. So what to do? How to make a decision??? So in the end reputation has more weight then anything even if it is not deserved. You name the brand I am sure I can find you a fan that thinks the world revolves around then and one can do no better etc......I mean you would have to get a real pile of junk to get someone to admit that they bought a pile of junk.

I guess iam ranting at this point but some place along the way I am sure you can at least see where Iam comeing from if you agree or not. To much hype not enough fact.

operagost

That is a great rant, but I'm not a Bach fanboy. Check out my sig! I do like them, but I just thought Bach must have been nuts to say on one hand that he didn't like making anything less than the best, but turn about and assemble a "student" horn out of discarded parts.

__________________
2006 Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
1987 Conn 100B "Doc Severinsen"
1946 Conn 22B "New York Symphony"

Schwab

This is exactly what I'm talking about in reference to posting false information. Bach's name was originally Vincent Schrotenbach, which he shortened to Bach.

Theres lots more, but I'm not going to go through and correct everything. If you're going to post, at least try to post accurate information.

In the end, the Omega is a good trumpet, if you want to start a new thread on Bach's student trumpets, please go ahead.

__________________
Dylan Schwab
Stage 1 New York