rowuk

So, as I see it, the issue is primarily the student instruments and doing the best for our kids.
If the here and now are our primary interest, OK. China does produce good quality instruments, you just have to look for them.
What secures future jobs in America? Buying foreign products now? How do we as consumers get american companies interested in building us these products? I can give you a hint - it only works when you keep Wall Street out - they do not care about the quality of our instruments or where they are produced or if there will be anybody that can afford to buy them in 10 years. They place shareholder value and profit ABOVE customer satisfaction!
That is why the small companies can build what they want to - no analyst telling them that the stock value has gone down because of the amount of employees and dedication to quality above short term profit!

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camelbrass

Some years ago there was a televison series in the UK where they sent the former chairman of ICI, John Hervey Jones into small companies to 'advise' them on efficiency and driving value for shareholders. There was an episode where he went into Morgan, the bespoked family owned car maker.

He suggested the usual things...introducing more automation (everything is done by hand), increasing the volume of production and increasing the price. He received a very polite answer via letter from Charles Morgan thanking him for his time and advice but they would stay as they were as they currently had a 6 year waiting list 'so must be doing something right'.

I think I'm correct in saying that Morgan is now the only UK owned car maker in existence. I will be taking my son around the factory this August and it's still all done by hand and, yes, they still have an extended waiting list.

There is something to be said for the strategy.

Regards,


Trevor

rowuk

Why are there no other UK owned manufacturers?
1) quality of construction was not always there
2) unfriendly takeover based on stock market activity
3) bankruptcy due to mismanagement

This list could be added to. It always comes down to the same thing. If you build something somebody else wants for a price that they are willing to pay - you still can't predict success if a third party just wants to make money with YOUR efforts.

There are several UK owned trumpet manufacturers however!
Taylor, Eclipse, Smith/Watkins, all of the natural trumpet manufacturers. I don't know about Boosey& Hawkes or Besson production any more.

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Dave Mickley

camelbrass - the Morgan is a great hand made auto and the people that buy them have some coin and know exactly what and why they are buying them. The same can be said for Monette, Eclipse and other hand built trumpets. The people who by the Chinese horns are the same people who bought the Yugos, they didn't know the product, just the price. When KIA and Hyundai
first came to the U.S. they were cheap and poorly made but the companies did their homework and are producing a better car now - probably the way with the Chinese trumpet. Notice which I called auto and which I called just car. Dave

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camelbrass

Point taken Dave.


Regards,


Trevor

Mark Bradley

Well, as an unpaid, unauthorized and possibly even illegal Jupiter endorsing artist (check out my updated Gearhead Page on my two bit web site) I must say I take exception of the condesending attitude for a Taiwanese (the good China the last time I checked) origin. I just switched to a Jupiter XO trumpet and it's surprisingly good... maybe no Blackburn but I'd stack it up against Yamaha and Bach among many others, and the Jupiter 846RL flugel is a winner. Great valves on both too (so far)!

Now the really cheapies from mainland China (India's are the real stinkers, I'll recount my experience with one of those pieces of poop another time) are another matter, however I just met a very fine lead player that was excited as a school girl over a First Act trumpet he paid something like 60 bucks for used. I played it and it was a bargain (came with a nice case which was what the guy really wanted it for in the first place). First Act--not bad. But trumpets to me are like sex. Even when it's bad... it's OK.

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rowuk

Mark,
there is no condescending attitude for off shore produced instruments. You get what you pay for. The far east has specialized in incremental quality. That includes Taiwan. Jupiter has the quality control and you do pay more for that. The point is that if a company wants to succeed, they have to offer value. Yamaha showed us that it was possible to mass produce a better Bach. The Chinese (Taiwanese, Romanian even Indien) have the technology, they just need a customer willing to pay what that quality will cost.
Let's not fool ourselves, as more and more manufacturers get into the game, the more price will become an issue. At that time the market defines how much "quality" is desired and will be paid for!

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Mark Bradley

"Getting what one pays for" is by and large more subjective than objective. It's more often than not perception. Is someone getting what they pay for when they spend 15 grand on a Monette? $125 on a First Act trumpet? If the buyer thinks he is--he is. There's not much point arguing otherwise if the consumer ends up satisfied. Someone said the the buyers of Chinese instruments are the type of people that would buy Yugos or Hundais in the old days. One might argue that they might be more like the people that bought Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics back in the 70-80s while the stodgy mainstream bought inferior Ford Mavericks and Chevy Vegas (my first car was a '69 VW Beetle by the way). It's true that in the competitive capitalistic free market, which I support and is what makes the world go 'round; the free market tends to make something just as "bad" as they can get away with. Nothing wrong with that (as long as it's safe)-- the consumer soon figures it out and if the manufacturer finds that he'll sell more of something spending more to make it better he'll do it, such as the case with Jupiter. Hundai too-- now one of the top rated cars for reliability whereas the early models were awful. If the manufacturer finds that he can cut corners and let quality control go down the drain he'll do it--such as the case with UMI and Bach. And for illustrative purposes let's not forget the US auto market which is scrambling to keep up with the superior Japanese cars. The new global market forces a change in attitude. Be it for the better or worse is open to debate. Either way way we're stuck with it so I say approach it with a positive attitude and open mind. There will probably always be a niche for hand made expensive cars and trumpets-- nothing wrong with that if the market will support it; but in the meantime the competition from places like Taiwan, etc. has the potential to turn many conventional attitudes upside down... it it hasn't allready.

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